# Cain feared retribution for murdering his brother. Whom did he fear, exactly? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2010, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148 "2010-04-06T15:25:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/41 "2010-04-06T19:34:35Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’ve never had a problem with Cain mating with a sister or niece (or great-great… niece) or understood why some people do. The bible establishes (well, claims) that Adam lived 930 years. Estimating 25 years for a generation, he could easily have lived to see thirty or more generations of descendants. Since it’s never established when the Cain v. Abel conflict occurred, I don’t see why it couldn’t have been centuries after creation birth, when there were numerous siblings and their descendants milling about. Actually, it does. > [@](#): > > 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth: So assuming that they didn’t dawdle, the Cain and Abel thing happened when Adam was 125 - 130. We don’t know how old Adam was when they got kicked out, or how old he was when Abel was born, but the murder couldn’t have been centuries after creation. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/42 "2010-04-06T19:36:14Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > No, because they were all wiped out in the Flood. Actually yes, [QUOTE=Gen 6:4] The Nephilim were on the earth in those days— **and also afterward** —when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown. [/QUOTE] The Nephilim were not from Adam, and also existed after the flood. Additionally Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/43 "2010-04-06T19:40:31Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > No, because they were all wiped out in the Flood. Well, that bottleneck ensures we all have Noah as an ancestor, but we don’t know the ancestry of Noah’s wife or the wives of his sons, any of whom could have a little nonAdamic in her. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/44 "2010-04-06T19:48:43Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Actually, it does. > > So assuming that they didn’t dawdle, the Cain and Abel thing happened when Adam was 125 - 130. We don’t know how old Adam was when they got kicked out, or how old he was when Abel was born, but the murder couldn’t have been centuries after creation. I stand corrected. In any case, there’s more than enough wiggle room for Cain to wander the land of Nod for a while and hook up with Seth’s great-grandaughter. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/45 "2010-04-06T19:57:55Z")
For that matter, we also don’t know a complete genealogy for Noah himself. We know that there was one line from Adam and Eve to him, but what about his mother, or his other grandparents, or whatever? In any event, though, since Noah was descended from A&E, and we’re all descended from Noah, it follows that we’re all descended from A&E. And possibly also from other sources, but that doesn’t really matter. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/46 "2010-04-06T20:04:41Z")
Well there are two different stories of creation in Genesis. One simply says God created man, male and female he created them. And then another tells about Adam and Eve. There are also two orders which animals are created. So according to Genesis, yes Adam and Eve aren’t necessarily the ONLY people God created from scratch. But it doesn’t say he is either. Just because something isn’t mentioned doesn’t mean it’s not important. We don’t know if Adam and Eve had more children. What seem to be implied is that after Abel is killed there are no more, male children born to Eve until Seth comes along. This is because Eve says God gave them Seth to replace Abel. As for incest? Perhaps, but so what. The only thing incest does is produce a higher chance of genetic defects. That’s why the taboo, along with such things as emotional jealousy. If we accept Adam and Eve were the first people their DNA wouldn’t have defects. And any they may have developed probably didn’t have time to change much or change to be serious. So their children mating wouldn’t produce any real increased risks of genetic disease ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/47 "2010-04-06T20:59:53Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > More interesting than that is that Cain goes and starts a city with his son - but who the city is populated by is not very clear. [Vampires!](http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/First_City) ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/48 "2010-04-06T21:53:04Z")
In decades of Sunday School in both conservative and liberal mainline churches, and even several years of college religion studies, I’ve never heard it suggested that God directly created anyone other than Adam and Eve. It seems that that would raise a whole host of theological problems, not the least of which being The Fall and Original Sin. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/49 "2010-04-06T22:06:17Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’ll add that some persons aver that the purpose of the Deluge was to wipe out both the remainder of the non-Adamic population, any persons descended from Cain, and any persons who descended from human-Nephilim crossbreeds. The Lord of Hosts is a terrible racist. 😉 ArkBuilder @FloodmasterIAm Dove just got back with olive branch. Team Noah FTW!! 40 minutes ago via web ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/50 "2010-04-06T22:13:12Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > In decades of Sunday School in both conservative and liberal mainline churches, and even several years of college religion studies, I’ve never heard it suggested that God directly created anyone other than Adam and Eve. It seems that that would raise a whole host of theological problems, not the least of which being The Fall and Original Sin. My parents used to own a “scholarly” Bible whichmade that assertion in a footnote. I’ll see if I can find it; I seriously doubt my father has ever thrown away any copy of scripture he’s owned. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/51 "2010-04-06T22:20:00Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > You are, of course, jesting. No doubt. Refer to the user name. (To state the obvious.) Heh. > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > But I don’t think we’re meant to take it that incest was prohibited until Moses’s time. No opprobrium is voiced against Lot for what he does with his daughters, though there is an implicit criticism of the idea in the way the story is told–blaming the girls in such a way that makes no sense whatsoever, even in mythic terms. One of my newer friends is a recovered fundie who has apparently done a lot of research lately in non-traditional motifs in the Bible. The gist of his take on the Lot story is this: Let’s assume that Abraham and Sara are correctly depicted as having the same father (though different mothers). This might later have become an embarrassment when even the marriage of non-intrauterine half-siblings became verboten. But if Lot’s descendants came from father-daughter unions, it becomes a small thing by comparison. Take it for what it’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/52 "2010-04-06T22:22:25Z")
Wikipedia has a really interesting article about unnamed people from the Bible. In it: “The book of Jubilees says that Awan was Adam and Eve’s first daughter. Their second daughter Azura married Seth.” … and that Awan was Cain’s wife. Presumably Abel was killed before Azura was old enough to marry. The whole article is [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_names_for_the_Biblical_nameless). As far as incest in the Bible goes, weren’t Abraham and Sarah siblings too, or at least half-siblings? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/53 "2010-04-06T22:29:22Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Stop typing faster than me. It is very annoying. Do it again and the hobbit dies. mmmm - fried hobbit. > [@](#): > > I’ll add that some persons aver that the purpose of the Deluge was to wipe out both the remainder of the non-Adamic population, any persons descended from Cain, and any persons who descended from human-Nephilim crossbreeds. The Lord of Hosts is a terrible racist. 😉 Descended from Cain in a very loose way, since I assume there might have been some women descended from Cain in the mix. Patrilineal descent, no. The existence of human-Nephilim crossbreeds was the biggest surprise when I actually read the Bible cover to cover. They never taught me about them in Hebrew school. One wonders how God lost control so thoroughly. Maybe he went away for the weekend or something, like how on **Pete & Pete** the Petes sold their house to Patty Hearst. There has to be a good comic in this story somewhere, how the only good crossbreed fights his evil brethren to protect the few good humans. The end could have him making a last stand while Noah sails away. Anyhow, it seems a dreadful waste of a good set of characters. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/54 "2010-04-06T22:30:40Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > As far as incest in the Bible goes, weren’t Abraham and Sarah siblings too, or at least half-siblings? According to Jesus each of the fellow believers is either a brother, sister or mother, though not a biological family, it is a family of God that seems to allow and encourage incest. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/55 "2010-04-06T22:32:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Abortion is not the topic of this thread. Set your own [house](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12309288&postcount=13) in order. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/56 "2010-04-06T22:33:20Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > When I was being raised as a Christian, they totally didn’t address it. Not even with a ten foot pole. > > I imagine this is not an uncommon approach. Yep. When I was a kid one of my mom’s best friends was a church elder, so I asked her the question in the OP when I was 14, but more specifically if the passage was evidence that Adam and Eve were the first created but not only. The answer? “Ummm…” ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/57 "2010-04-06T22:36:01Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > As God refined cane, throughout all generations, Adam is healed… Please. Don’t y’know that refined cane is bad for you, _ **sugar** _?! 😕 :eek: – I MEAN that refined cane sugar is bad for you, _ **kanicbird** _!!! – WHEW! \*\*\*- Og * * * ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/58 "2010-04-06T22:39:22Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > According to Jesus each of the fellow believers is either a brother, sister or mother, though not a biological family, it is a family of God that seems to allow and encourage incest. :eek: Wow. That’s, like, witnessing in reverse. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/59 "2010-04-06T22:42:51Z")
> [@Trans Fat Og](#): > > No doubt. Refer to the user name. (To state the obvious.) Heh. > One of my newer friends is a recovered fundie who has apparently done a lot of research lately in non-traditional motifs in the Bible. > > The gist of his take on the Lot story is this: > > Let’s assume that Abraham and Sara are correctly depicted as having the same father (though different mothers). This might later have become an embarrassment when even the marriage of non-intrauterine half-siblings became verboten. But if Lot’s descendants came from father-daughter unions, it becomes a small thing by comparison. > > Take it for what it’s worth. The problem with that interpretation is that Lot is never criticized for what happens, and St. Peter, whom you think would know about these things, cites him as an extraordinarily holy man. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/60 "2010-04-06T22:44:28Z")
I was taught incest. While Cain and Abel were Adam’s firstborn sons, in between their birth and the stories about them, Adam and Eve had many more children. And they may have had daughters even before that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148.md?page=4)