# Cain feared retribution for murdering his brother. Whom did he fear, exactly? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2010, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148 "2010-04-06T15:25:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/81 "2010-04-07T14:33:37Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > God is much greater that we were taught. What I was referring to was spouses are also brother and sister or even son and mother. > > Commonly this is used to state that sex will be done away with, I believe that to be exactly wrong. God Loves us to Love each other and God Loves children. In this world we learn about connecting to people through marrying a single spouse, it is the restrictions He places on our lives so we learn to really connect to one. I believe that after we learn that, which does come through Jesus, and are in the Kingdom there is what we would call free, deep caring, Love, painless childbirth and children will be highly desired. We are not there yet and it can not exist in this world as it is till the curses are done away with but it is what is coming. The restrictions on Love come from the hardness of man’s heart and the influence of the enemy. > > We will all know and Love each other intensely. The angels are stars, as they have more children more stars will be born till the entire night sky is lit up IMHO. When you do your ‘_Ask the guy with the groovy take on Christian theology_’ thread, could you PM me? I wouldn’t want to miss it. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/82 "2010-04-07T16:27:48Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > But the only other people alive at the time were his own parents. Yup, but there was going to be plenty of time for other people to show up, since Genesis talks of nine-hundred-year lifespans for generations to come. It wasn’t until Genesis 6 that God shortened human lifespan to a mere 120 years - but I’m not telling you anything you don’t already know, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/83 "2010-04-07T17:29:04Z")
He was going to have about a 20 year head start, and a whole planet to hide on. I think he could have managed to avoid a few future nieces and nephows if he wanted to. They’d have all been soft in the head from inbreeding anyway, so they’d have been easy to outwit. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/84 "2010-04-07T17:49:43Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > That only exposes your refusal to actually read the OP. I explicitly state that I judge all of Genesis to be a a myth with less basis in history than Buffy the Vampire Slayer. _The OP asks what people raised as Christians were taught._ **Diogenes** , that came out much bitchier than it should have. I’m sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/85 "2010-04-07T18:12:06Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He was going to have about a 20 year head start, and a whole planet to hide on. I think he could have managed to avoid a few future nieces and nephows if he wanted to. They’d have all been soft in the head from inbreeding anyway, so they’d have been easy to outwit. Damn. Al Capp should have illustrated the book of Genesis. Godpatch, starring Lil’Abel. Also starring pappy Adam and Mamma Eve Yokum. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/86 "2010-04-07T19:06:19Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > **Diogenes** , that came out much bitchier than it should have. I’m sorry. That’s ok, I should have read the OP more closely. The “Christian” answer is that there is no canonical Christian answer. There are various fanwanks as you’ve seen, generally along the lines that Cain is worried about future offspring of future siblings. There’s probably some kind of Midrashic (which is Hebrew for “fanwanked”) answer to it as well, but I’m not schooled on it, although I do know they both had twin sisters in midrashic tradition, each of whom was married to the other’s twin (I guess it would have been too icky if they had to marry their own twins), so maybe Abel’s wife had a head start on birthing sons who would swear to kill the man that killed their pa/uncle. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/87 "2010-04-07T19:25:18Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > There seems to be a contradiction here. Who, exactly, is Cain afraid of? For that matter, whom did he marry? In your early religious education, what were you taught about this? Who was Cain’s wife? That’s the question that started me studying religion, trying to find an answer to it. That is how I discovered that religion is a lie. And I have never understood how people come up with the concept of all these other folks running around. The bible is supposed to be the word of god and all that, and the bible very, very specifically tells us that there are only three people alive on Earth at that moment: Adam, Eve and Cain. This anomaly is only one of many in the bible, so many that I wonder how people can read it and not accept it as a work of fiction from the get-go. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/88 "2010-04-07T20:45:00Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > The problem with that interpretation is that Lot is never criticized for what happens, and St. Peter, whom you think would know about these things, cites him as an extraordinarily holy man. That rings a bell. It may be interesting to ask him about that point. The fact that the story has Lot too drunk to know what’s going on, and places the responsibility on the daughters by default, may enter into my friend’s response, I’d guess. > [@kanicbird](#): > > God is much greater that we were taught. What I was referring to was spouses are also brother and sister or even son and mother. So you wouldn’t have a problem with even a “[Murmur of the Heart](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murmur_of_the_heart)” scenario? Do you mean only in the next life? > [@](#): > > Commonly this is used to state that sex will be done away with, I believe that to be exactly wrong. God Loves us to Love each other and God Loves children. In this world we learn about connecting to people through marrying a single spouse, it is the restrictions He places on our lives so we learn to really connect to one. I believe that after we learn that, which does come through Jesus, and are in the Kingdom there is what we would call free, deep caring, Love, painless childbirth and children will be highly desired. We are not there yet and it can not exist in this world as it is till the curses are done away with but it is what is coming. The restrictions on Love come from the hardness of man’s heart and the influence of the enemy. Interesting. The only reference I know of for “hardness of the heart” is allowing men to divorce their wives and take fresh ones. That’s in the opposite direction. > [@](#): > > We will all know and Love each other intensely. The angels are stars, as they have more children more stars will be born till the entire night sky is lit up IMHO. If the entire “night sky” were to become literally-lit up with stars, even if by adding red dwarfs stars only, there would no longer be a night sky. Even considering the lower intensity (power divided by square degree) the earth would receive many times the energy per second than it does now (which is primarily from the sun). That would make life impossible. Oh, sorry. That would be distracting from your line of thought with real-world physics. Nevermind. > [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > When you do your ‘_Ask the guy with the groovy take on Christian theology_’ thread, could you PM me? I wouldn’t want to miss it. I’m thinking more of: _ **Ask the discoverer of a new psycho-active drug** _, myself. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/89 "2010-04-07T20:50:08Z")
> [@](#): > > The bible is supposed to be the word of god and all that, and the bible very, very specifically tells us that there are only three people alive on Earth at that moment: Adam, Eve and Cain. Where does it say that those are the only three people? It says that Adam and Eve were the first, and that Cain and Abel were their sons, but I’m not aware of anything that says there were no other humans. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/90 "2010-04-07T21:02:09Z")
Complete text: “John and Mary had a son named James. James died while driving drunk. His brother Timmy gave the eulogy.” By a close reading, this is impossible. Timmy isn’t mentioned before James’ death, therefore he wasn’t alive when James died. Why some feel it necessary to come up with convoluted explanations or willfully ignore the issue when it’s actually very simple (i.e. Timmy was indeed born before James’ death, but it just isn’t explicitly mentioned) escapes me. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/91 "2010-04-07T21:57:36Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > God is much greater that we were taught. What I was referring to was spouses are also brother and sister or even son and mother. > > Commonly this is used to state that sex will be done away with, I believe that to be exactly wrong. God Loves us to Love each other and God Loves children. In this world we learn about connecting to people through marrying a single spouse, it is the restrictions He places on our lives so we learn to really connect to one. I believe that after we learn that, which does come through Jesus, and are in the Kingdom there is what we would call free, deep caring, Love, painless childbirth and children will be highly desired. We are not there yet and it can not exist in this world as it is till the curses are done away with but it is what is coming. The restrictions on Love come from the hardness of man’s heart and the influence of the enemy. > > We will all know and Love each other intensely. The angels are stars, as they have more children more stars will be born till the entire night sky is lit up IMHO. So heaven is going to be one ginormous continuous orgy? That’s an…interesting…take on things. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He was going to have about a 20 year head start, and a whole planet to hide on. I think he could have managed to avoid a few future nieces and nephows if he wanted to. They’d have all been soft in the head from inbreeding anyway, so they’d have been easy to outwit. But, wasn’t he going to be unable to grow his own food? Wouldn’t that limit him to lurking on the fringes of civilization, in ready of sight of the forty vengeful sisters who had been born after him but before the murder? Also, I don’t unconditionally accept that there were no sons between Cain/Abel and Seth. No matter how many other sons there were, only the _next_ one would be a replacement for Abel. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/92 "2010-04-07T21:59:55Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He was going to have about a 20 year head start, and a whole planet to hide on. I think he could have managed to avoid a few future nieces and nephows if he wanted to. They’d have all been soft in the head from inbreeding anyway, so they’d have been easy to outwit. One generation of inbreeding? Now you’re jesting with me. 😃 > [@Clothahump](#): > > Who was Cain’s wife? That’s the question that started me studying religion, trying to find an answer to it. That is how I discovered that religion is a lie. > > And I have never understood how people come up with the concept of all these other folks running around. The bible is supposed to be the word of god and all that, and the bible very, very specifically tells us that there are only three people alive on Earth at that moment: Adam, Eve and Cain. This anomaly is only one of many in the bible, so many that I wonder how people can read it and not accept it as a work of fiction from the get-go. After some more mod-slapping, I see. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/93 "2010-04-07T22:41:24Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > One generation of inbreeding? Now you’re jesting with me. 😃 Well, Eve was made from Adam’s rib, so technically she’s a clone - sure, there’s some anecdotal evidence that her gender-determining genetics were altered in the process, but there’s no solid reason to believe she wasn’t otherwise genetically identical to Adam. This would mean that whatever detrimental recessive genes they were trucking around had a 1/4 chance of manifesting full bore, for _each_ recessive trait. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/94 "2010-04-07T22:54:14Z")
We’re actually talking about genetics in regards to the Bible? _Really_? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/95 "2010-04-07T23:05:24Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > We’re actually talking about genetics in regards to the Bible? _Really_? Well, it’s either a silly story or it isn’t, and if we treat it as a silly story the response to the OP is “it’s just a plot hole”. Once you start worrying about story consistency and start assuming real-world constraints like “people had to be born from somewhere”, whole batteries of subjects are opened for question. Plus, it opens up _lots_ of explanations - significant chunks of the bible make more sense if you think of all the characters involved as inbred addlepates. Maybe Cain was worried about being hunted by nonexistent people because he was too dim to realize that there weren’t any to worry about? (And maybe he didn’t realize that he’d populated his city with -and married- sheep.) ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/96 "2010-04-07T23:10:33Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > significant chunks of the bible make more sense if you think of all the characters involved as inbred addlepates. You might’ve made a Christian out of me. It all falls into place. Finally. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/97 "2010-04-08T00:26:58Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That’s ok, I should have read the OP more closely. > > The “Christian” answer is that there is no canonical Christian answer. There are various fanwanks as you’ve seen, generally along the lines that Cain is worried about future offspring of future siblings. There’s probably some kind of Midrashic (which is Hebrew for “fanwanked”) answer to it as well, but I’m not schooled on it, although I do know they both had twin sisters in midrashic tradition, each of whom was married to the other’s twin (I guess it would have been too icky if they had to marry their own twins), so maybe Abel’s wife had a head start on birthing sons who would swear to kill the man that killed their pa/uncle. I can’t tell if you’re analyzing in-story or out-of-story. Do you mean that it would have been too icky from Cain & Abel’s points of view, or from the points of view of the Hebrew scholars who wrote the midrashes? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/98 "2010-04-08T00:27:28Z")
For other people in the Garden, there is the serpent, who is defined in Revelation as Satan. Satan is associated with the sons of God, in Job 1. It is very possible that the sons of God could have also been in the garden. The Lord was also in the garden, so there were other beings, though all male. God did create the stars in Gen 1:17, which stars are defined as angels (Rev 1:20), which are other beings that may be female, and if the sons of God can interact with humans, is there reason to doubt that angels can not? Female angels may be other beings that could be wives for Adam’s sons. > [@Trans Fat Og](#): > > Interesting. The only reference I know of for “hardness of the heart” is allowing men to divorce their wives and take fresh ones. That’s in the opposite direction. The hardness of heart is towards God, usually at the time of the marriage, not involving God in the selection of a spouse, it is not hardness of heart towards the spouse as I understand it. This is why Moses (and Paul) allowed divorce, a chance to put things right, God first. (And God can handle those laws of physics) [QUOTE=begbert2] So heaven is going to be one ginormous continuous orgy? That’s an…interesting…take on things. [/QUOTE] I wouldn’t put it that way, but hey if it works for you, and the desire is to conceive children then go ahead. And I believe it’s ongoing right now, we just bough Satan’s plan of much reduced sex and children being though of as a burden, and the sex we get is because God mediated in our behalf. [QUOTE= Attack from the 3d] When you do your ‘Ask the guy with the groovy take on Christian theology’ thread, could you PM me? I wouldn’t want to miss it. [/QUOTE] If I do such a thread, and I remember. It would be very involved. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/99 "2010-04-08T00:29:01Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Who was Cain’s wife? That’s the question that started me studying religion, trying to find an answer to it. That is how I discovered that religion is a lie. That’s a pity, as “religion is a lie” does not follow from the illogical elements of the Tanakh. At most you can get “Judaism & Christianity are lies.” ETA: And in fact, you can really only get to “Biblical literalism is a lie” based on that. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/100 "2010-04-08T02:03:47Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I can’t tell if you’re analyzing in-story or out-of-story. Do you mean that it would have been too icky from Cain & Abel’s points of view, or from the points of view of the Hebrew scholars who wrote the midrashes? Well, I meant it in terms of the characters in the story, but I was joking. Now that you mention it, though, the midrashers probably did think it would be slightly less icky. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148.md?page=6)