# Cain feared retribution for murdering his brother. Whom did he fear, exactly? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2010, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148 "2010-04-06T15:25:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/141 "2010-04-09T01:31:41Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Along with Gen 1:28 … which says > [@](#): > > And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Being omniscient he knows they will fall for his little sting operation and be kicked out of Eden, there’s no implication here that they can breed while still in Eden. In fact to fulfil his commandment and “replenish the earth, and subdue it” they _must_ leave Eden. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/142 "2010-04-09T01:42:01Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > [QUOTE=Askance] > Clearly the third son, directly conceived to replace the first son Abel. I reject this conclusion - clearly the next son born after the murder would be a replacement for Abel, but there could have been fifteen sons in between, who would not have been in the running for replacement since Abel was still around when they were born. **I see no argument against the theory that Adam and Eve had been spawning like rabbits in the hundred years before Cain got murderous**. Odds are good that there’d be plenty of sisters hanging around for Cain to run off with. [/QUOTE] Except that, you know, there’s no mention of it. Not sure where you get your 100 years from but Cain’s wife must arrive between GEN 4:2 and GEN 4:17, and GEN 4:3 to 4:16 are entirely concerned with Cain’s punishment. So explicitly mentioned are Abel, Cain, Seth, then further “sons and daughters” were begat. There is no reason other than wish-fulfilment rationalisation to invent other children. Why would the bible explicitly mention, in particular or in general, every child Adam had except those you are interposing between Cain’s birth and Abel’s murder? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/143 "2010-04-09T01:51:21Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > There is no reason other than wish-fulfilment rationalisation to invent other children. So given the choice between filling in the blanks in a somewhat plausible manner and clinging to a literal interpretation that makes no sense… we should stick to the latter? ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/144 "2010-04-09T02:22:18Z")
The third choice is to acknowledge that it is a bunch of inconsistent myths collected from large areas of time and space, with no connection to each other. Then we can perhaps move on and base our culture and morality on something more solid and defensible, such as acknowledgement of our mutual humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/145 "2010-04-09T02:34:00Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > The third choice is to acknowledge that it is a bunch of inconsistent myths collected from large areas of time and space, with no connection to each other. Then we can perhaps move on and base our culture and morality on something more solid and defensible, such as acknowledgement of our mutual humanity. Well, okay… if you wanna be a _killjoy_ and all… ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/146 "2010-04-09T13:23:15Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > Except that, you know, there’s no mention of it. Not sure where you get your 100 years from but Cain’s wife must arrive between GEN 4:2 and GEN 4:17, and GEN 4:3 to 4:16 are entirely concerned with Cain’s punishment. > > So explicitly mentioned are Abel, Cain, Seth, then further “sons and daughters” were begat. There is no reason other than wish-fulfilment rationalisation to invent other children. Why would the bible explicitly mention, in particular or in general, every child Adam had except those you are interposing between Cain’s birth and Abel’s murder? The relationship between Adam and Eve is a marriage as Eve is called Adam’s wife in Gen 2:25, which would imply or even require sex (1 Cor 6:16 shows that sex alone forms a marriage, combining the two into one, even lustful thoughts (Mk 6:23, Ester 5:3), have strong marital overtones). In Gen 3:6 we see that Eve was not interested in the fruit of the tree - until she saw the perceived benefits of it, when she saw, she ate, so this is not some ongoing temptation that gnawed at her, but basically a impulse buy. With that, along with Gen 1:28 (the command to be fruitful and increase), I’d say it was very the reason they were together to have children. Now if they had time to conceive a child before the temptation/fall is not clear. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/147 "2010-04-09T15:22:24Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > In Gen 3:6 we see that Eve was not interested in the fruit of the tree - until she saw the perceived benefits of it, when she saw, she ate, so this is not some ongoing temptation that gnawed at her, but basically a impulse buy. And for a momentary impulse, God made labour pains really bad? God’s a dick. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/148 "2010-04-09T16:41:28Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And for a momentary impulse, God made labour pains really bad? > God’s a dick. IMHO it was Satan, God just mediated on our behalf, it would have been much worse without God’s intervention. God never wanted this for us, but also had to deal with Satan justly. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/149 "2010-04-09T16:43:49Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > IMHO it was Satan, God just mediated on our behalf, it would have been much worse without God’s intervention. God never wanted this for us, but also had to deal with Satan justly. Who created Satan? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/150 "2010-04-09T16:45:26Z")
The difference between a universe with such a God and universe with no God at all escapes me. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/151 "2010-04-09T17:10:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The difference between a universe with such a God and universe with no God at all escapes me. A universe with such a god as KB worships is actively malevolent towards man-the-kind instead of merely indifferent to us. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/152 "2010-04-09T18:13:02Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > A universe with such a god as KB worships is actively malevolent towards man-the-kind instead of merely indifferent to us. Oh, I dunno. Bad stuff happens randomly (good stuff, too) and is _attributed_ to the will of God, which suggests a capricious God (if one exists) or just the vagaries of life (if one doesn’t). To postulate an evil God, one would have to prove something evil happened that could only be explained by such a God. The same applies for a benevolent God. kanicbird and lekatt describe a God whose motives are so vague and whose nature is so tenuous that replacing it with the random spinning of electrons makes no change at all. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/153 "2010-04-09T22:25:12Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The difference between a universe with such a God and universe with no God at all escapes me. The difference is that God offers escape from this universe. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/154 "2010-04-09T22:28:11Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The difference is that God offers escape from this universe. Unless he is lying, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/155 "2010-04-09T22:34:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Unless he is lying, of course. And before you tell me about your ability to tell truth from lies, tell me which of these statements are true: 1. I have been married three times. 2. I used to be a truck driver. 3. I have had lunch with Harlan Ellison. A “god” with intelligence infinitely greater than yours would have no trouble fooling you into believing lies, and he might even have a very good reason to do so…I mean, who are we to question the ways of God, right? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/156 "2010-04-09T22:38:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Who created Satan? [IMHO] Satan became Satan when he caused Adam and Eve to fall, Satan stepped outside the will of God, as evident that Satan incurred curses, before that it appears the being that would become Satan, possibly Lucifer, was one of God’s children, related to the ‘sons of God’ in Job1:6. Since God is one, Lucifer would have been one with God from the beginning. Satan’s decision to leave God’s way created the being we know as Satan. [/IMHO] ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/157 "2010-04-09T22:54:53Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > [IMHO] Satan became Satan when he caused Adam and Eve to fall, Satan stepped outside the will of God, as evident that Satan incurred curses, before that it appears the being that would become Satan, possibly Lucifer, was one of God’s children, related to the ‘sons of God’ in Job1:6. Since God is one, Lucifer would have been one with God from the beginning. Satan’s decision to leave God’s way created the being we know as Satan. [/IMHO] Too bad God couldn’t have seen _that_ one coming, otherwise he wouldn’t have wasted his time with that whole Eden fiasco in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/158 "2010-04-09T23:06:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Too bad God couldn’t have seen _that_ one coming, otherwise he wouldn’t have wasted his time with that whole Eden fiasco in the first place. I can assure you it’s all part of the plan, which allowed Jesus which is God’s Son with full respect and Love for God’s creation - which is also Love and respect for females, which I believe the son’s of God didn’t really get, till Jesus. The cost for God, part of Himself, the benefit for us the inheritance of Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/159 "2010-04-10T02:31:35Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I can assure you it’s all part of the plan… Unless you are claiming that you have a special “in” with your god that no one else on Earth has, unless you are the lone exception to the “belief based on faith alone” rule…no, _you_ can’t assure us of jack. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/160 "2010-04-10T04:01:09Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The difference is that God offers escape from this universe. Which means what, exactly? Just kidding. I know you don’t know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148.md?page=9)