# Cain feared retribution for murdering his brother. Whom did he fear, exactly? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2010, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148 "2010-04-06T15:25:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/161 "2010-04-10T04:06:30Z")
So God created Adam and Eve knowing that they’d sin and that he’d have to create Adam version 2.0 to be born, raised and then die so that his original creation could be redeemed from sin? Why even bother then? Sheesh, no wonder Satan took his ball and went home. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2010, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/162 "2010-04-10T17:50:08Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > God did create the stars in Gen 1:17, which stars are defined as angels (Rev 1:20) Taking the second part first, \*\*of course \*\*the stars are defined as angels. But there are many quote selections that are than Revelation 1:20 for this. But I’m curious, and since you obviously know much more about it than I do, maybe you can answer my questions. What about white dwarf stars? Are they angels too? Infrared stars? Neutron stars? Stars that go supernova? Nebular remnants of them? What about binary stars? Is there a significance to them being literally millions of times closer to each other than the average separation in galactic disc? How about optical binaries? Is there some special significance to stars that only appear to be close totgeher, from our little pinpoint? * * * Oh, and God didn’t create the stars. The stars created God. Get it right! _**- [COLOR=“DarkRed”](I’m no angel. 😉 ) Og**_[/COLOR] ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/163 "2010-04-11T11:51:47Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The relationship between Adam and Eve is a marriage as Eve is called Adam’s wife in Gen 2:25, which would imply or even require sex (1 Cor 6:16 shows that sex alone forms a marriage, combining the two into one, even lustful thoughts (Mk 6:23, Ester 5:3), have strong marital overtones). So now people who can no longer have sex aren’t really married? Jeez, you really have it in for the disabled, don’t you? In any case there is no evidence whatsoever that they had any children in Eden. Even if they had sex. Presumably a perfect world had perfect contraception. And I’ll remind you there was no death in Eden, so if everything bred while there it would be overrun in no time. > [@](#): > > In Gen 3:6 we see that Eve was not interested in the fruit of the tree - until she saw the perceived benefits of it, when she saw, she ate, so this is not some ongoing temptation that gnawed at her, but basically a impulse buy. I have no idea what this has to do with the ongoing discussion. > [@](#): > > With that, along with Gen 1:28 (the command to be fruitful and increase), I’d say it was very the reason they were together to have children. Now if they had time to conceive a child before the temptation/fall is not clear. A concession at last … with the utter lack of evidence for any children in that period we must assume they had none, as children for all other parts of their lives are explicitly mentioned. So there are no extra secret children for Cain and Abel to marry, so in consequence the entire plot of Genesis falls apart and is shown for the random collection of folk tales from various cultures, areas, and times that it always was. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/164 "2010-04-11T12:02:34Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > And for a momentary impulse, God made labour pains really bad? > [@kanicbird](#): > > IMHO it was Satan, God just mediated on our behalf, it would have been much worse without God’s intervention. God never wanted this for us, but also had to deal with Satan justly. Erm, no. Don’t you read your own holy book? [QUOTE=Gen 3:16] Unto the woman \*\*he said, \*\ ***I** [God] will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children … [/QUOTE] God did all the punishing. And I can’t believe you actually claim that God let Satan (who by the way is entirely unmentioned at this point) dish out his punishment on his behalf? That’s really your belief, that God sub-contracts the nasty jobs out to the Father of Lies, the lord of evil, the tempter? I’ve seen some theists do some contorted thinking before but this is truly amazing. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/165 "2010-04-11T20:41:59Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > So now people who can no longer have sex aren’t really married? Jeez, you really have it in for the disabled, don’t you? Penis in vagina not required: [QUOTE=Matthew 5:28] But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > In any case there is no evidence whatsoever that they had any children in Eden. Even if they had sex. Presumably a perfect world had perfect contraception. And I’ll remind you there was no death in Eden, so if everything bred while there it would be overrun in no time. Gen 1:28x, “be fruitful and increase, fill the earth…” If there was no children it was only because the serpent got to them before Adam and Eve had a chance. Children were obviously wanted by God. If God desired children to the point that He said fill the earth, God would make resources available. > [@](#): > > I have no idea what this has to do with the ongoing discussion. It is to show that she was deceived, not a joint decision between Adam and Eve (as the Koran states), also that she didn’t see anything other then what God wanted till someone came and showed her something else, sin was impossible before this time. > [@](#): > > A concession at last … with the utter lack of evidence for any children in that period we must assume they had none, as children for all other parts of their lives are explicitly mentioned. So there are no extra secret children for Cain and Abel to marry, so in consequence the entire plot of Genesis falls apart and is shown for the random collection of folk tales from various cultures, areas, and times that it always was. I think it very likely that Eve’s sin was a violation of be fruitful and increase, which could mean, as it’s not excluded, that Eve’s sin was some sort of herbal abortion of very possibly, infant Jesus, traded for Satan’s child Cain. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/166 "2010-04-11T20:49:39Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > Erm, no. Don’t you read your own holy book? Yes that’s where I got this ‘crazy idea’ from: Gal 3:19-12 and compare 1 Chronicles 21:1 to 2 Samuel 24:1, both are about the same event, the census that King David had done, one says Satan moved David the other the Lord. Also Look at Job 1 & 2 how the Lord’s striking Job is done be Satan. > [@](#): > > God did all the punishing. And I can’t believe you actually claim that God let Satan (who by the way is entirely unmentioned at this point) dish out his punishment on his behalf? That’s really your belief, that God sub-contracts the nasty jobs out to the Father of Lies, the lord of evil, the tempter? I’ve seen some theists do some contorted thinking before but this is truly amazing. God allows Satan to operate his evil way to Satan’s own destruction. It would not be fair for God to strike down Satan for making a error, but allows time for Satan’s way to come to a end, which God offers to us also. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/167 "2010-04-11T20:58:18Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > In your early religious education, what were you taught about this? This is the only part of the question I feel at all qualified to address (it being my education you’re asking about). I went to religious schools for the first thirteen years of my education. The church in which I grew up did not espouse biblical literalism and wasn’t concerned about questions like this, since it considers Genesis to have been written to convey certain great truths (which are not the subject of this discussion), not history or science. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/168 "2010-04-11T23:56:30Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I think it very likely that Eve’s sin was a violation of be fruitful and increase, which could mean, as it’s not excluded, that Eve’s sin was some sort of herbal abortion of very possibly, infant Jesus, traded for Satan’s child Cain. Please, please start a thread on everything you now believe, putting it some sort of systematic order. * * * Yummy!\*\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/169 "2010-04-12T19:13:47Z")
> [@Trans Fat Og](#): > > Please, please start a thread on everything you now believe, putting it some sort of systematic order. > > * * * > > Yummy!\*\*\* :mad: If this happens, you will pay. You and your friends and your children and your friend’s children and your children’s friends. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/170 "2010-04-13T13:11:56Z")
> [@Trans Fat Og](#): > > Please, please start a thread on everything you now believe, putting it some sort of systematic order. > > * * * > > Yummy!\*\*\* This would be so long and complex, going through all books of the Bible, it just seems way too much. But some pieces are small enough that I may post them as a new thread. [QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] :mad: If this happens, you will pay. You and your friends and your children and your friend’s children and your children’s friends. [/QUOTE] WOW, Just WOW. This is a very precise curse, worthy of biblical times, in the name of Jesus, this curse will not come against anyone, no weapon forged will prosper. God bless you. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/171 "2010-04-13T14:15:38Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > This would be so long and complex, going through all books of the Bible, it just seems way too much. But some pieces are small enough that I may post them as a new thread. > > WOW, Just WOW. This is a very precise curse, worthy of biblical times, in the name of Jesus, this curse will not come against anyone, no weapon forged will prosper. > > God bless you. I really, really hope you’re just putting us on. ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148/172 "2010-04-13T22:26:28Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > :mad: > > If this happens, you will pay. You and your friends and your children and your friend’s children and your children’s friends. Aw, come on! The devil made me say that! _ **- Dark Og, the Evil Twin** _ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cain-feared-retribution-for-murdering-his-brother-whom-did-he-fear-exactly/535148.md?page=8)