Cain: I now pronounce you man and... Huh?

I’m a cradle catholic, and here’s what I believe. The old testament is a collection of stories, myths, and legends. Some are based on truth, which had been embellished and manipulated throughout hundreds of years of re-telling; some are complete fiction. The old testament is a glimpse into an ancient people grasping for explanations about their universe – who are we? why are we here? why do we suffer – and is it because of something I did wrong? --basically the same questions WE have about our universe, without the benefit of more plausible scientific explanations. The God depicted in the OT is fickle, alternating between a merciful, just God and an angry, violent God.

However, the gospel is a different story. These are supposedly accurate, eyewitness accounts of Jesus’ life. In the grand scheme of things, they are relatively modern re-countings. And since these are “gospel truths” they are treated differently. Only the priest reads them at mass (vs. lay people who read the first two “readings”), we make the three cross on our forehead, mouth and heart prior to listening to them, and we sing “Alleluiah” in preparation prior to hearing it. It is a first-hand account of Christ, through the eyes of his disciples Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. It’s the best glimpse we have into His life, seeing how He didn’t see fit to write his own book.

Boris:

Yes. At the beginning [the story goes], everything was hunky dory and humans were free of sin until Adam and Eve screwed up and gave us Original Sin, passed down from one generation to the next. If not for original sin, we’d all be living in paradise on earth right now. So, if God did create other people from scratch, did he:
A. Create them as perfect, sinless people, just like Adam and Eve were when they were first created? (If so, it’s hardly fair that those sinless creations should have to suffer for Adam and Eve’s crime.) or

B. Create them with the tarnish of sin already in place? (It doesn’t seem fair to blame everyone’s troubles on human sin if God deliberately instilled sin in some of his creations.)

So yes, if God created people other than those mentioned in Genesis, the tenet of original sin falls apart.

I find all this a little hard to follow. What’s the problem with two individuals with all the genetic potential of their species giving rise to that species? Without all the duplictaed and (supposedly) redundant genetic material it’s more than possible to have all these genes in one individual. I’m not sure if I believe this, but if we’re accepting the Bible at all, surely this little bit of genetic engineering is small stuff compared to the preceeding five days. Just to give the idea some perspective the last I heard it is beleived that the entire Cheetah population is currently derived from just seventeen individuals who, since they were living in the same area, must have been already interelated. So small populations don’t mean inbreeding if there is sufficient genetic diversity in the first place.
If we’re rejecting the Bible then no problem. If you really want strong grounds for doubting the Bible’s worth as a source of knowledge on Genetics can I suggest Genesis 30: 31-43. Goats and sheep apparently inheret their skin colouration from the colour of the landsacape their parents are exposed to at the time of copulation. Compared to that inbreeding is a very small deviation from accepted probabilities.

Strangely enough Satan, I’ve just been reading Kenneth C. Davis’ book Don’t Know Much About the Bible. Keep in mind that Davis is not someone who believes that the Bible is a literal account of what actually happened. Rather he knows it is a book stitched together from a number of different authors and filled with contradictions and mistranslations.

Regarding Cain’s fear that someone will kill him in Genesis 4:14 and the subsequent question of Cain’s wife Davis says:

[sub]500[/sub]

Hell, everyone knows that the land of nod is in my easy chair.

Holly said,

This one would work just fine. God created Adam and Eve, Boris and Natasha, and Bill and Jill. After the first generation, they bred with each other. Boris & Natasha’s kids, as well as Bill & Jill’s kids, were free from original sin, but the next generation wasn’t since they bred with original sinner descended from Adam and Eve. This idea is totally compatible with Adam and Eve being the first people on Earth, and it is totally compatible with the idea that everyone on Earth is descended from Adam and Eve. I’m not a Christian, but if I were, I would have no trouble believing that if God started out by creating three couples, the blood from each of those couples would be in all of us. Furthermore, I don’t know exactly how Original Sin is supposed to work, but I can’t see why it’s working are dependent on our having no blood in us other than that of Adam and Eve.

I don’t buy B, but I think C would work fine: Eve and/or the snake introduced sin into the world, where it spread to everybody regardless of lineage. It doesn’t seem fair either, but then, why should I inherit sin from my ancestors anyway? Obviously, sin is not a matter of individual responsibility, at least at this stage of the Bible.

According to my hard cover Book of Nod(I knew it would come in handy), his first wife was Zillah(also translated Sylah) and she was one of his childer(no incest taboo in the Kindred world). He loved her but she didn’t love him so he went to an old crone and she taught him how to blood bond Zillah.(drink his blood three times) Then they were married.

Wait: impossibilities in the Bible? No! Say it ain’t so!
But the Bible is the word of GOD! And we know it’s the word of God, because that’s what it says in the Bible! And the Bible has to be true, 'coz it’s the word of God! And we know it’s the word of God, because…

y’all can fill in the rest. It gives me a headache.

At any rate, Before God created Eve, he created Lilith in the same way he created Adam: out of the dust of the ground.

But, since she was made in the same way, she wated to be considered equal to Adam, and therefore evil (a woman? the equal of a man? NEVER!). So God cast her out, and then created little wifey out of Adam, subjugate to his will, to run around and wash Adam’s unmentionables.

Perhaps she was one of the progenitors to the Noddites. Of course, who knocked her up?

[ul]
[li]bradysg: , Genesis is just some creation myth that isn’t expected to hold up under any close examination.[/li][li]kaz: I think that these places such as the land of Nod and Eden became fictional places because they were in Genesis, and therefore became the stuff of fairy tales and such.[/li][li]blessedwolf: Wait: impossibilities in the Bible? No! Say it ain’t so![/li][/ul]
VS
[ul]
[li]zev_steinhardt: …time for the Jewish explanation.[/li][li]zev_steinhardt: As for the Orthodox position:[/li][li]cmkeller: *Well, here’s the deal on the Oral Tradition in Judaism (as Orthodox Jews understand its history): *[/li][/ul]

Interesting contrast, no?

I understand that this is a debate, and, for that matter, it is one regarding a topic many people feel strongly about. We can all, I’m sure, avoid insulting the beliefs of others by prefacing our views with phrases like, “I think.”

No?

Debates are won through clear, polit discourse. The sharing of information works the same way. Let’s try not to belittle the beliefs of others. Play nice, everyone.

On the question of Lilith: What’s the story on Lilith, Adam’s “first wife”?

I dunno why this Cain thing still rages.

You can take the Bible as literal truth, dictated by God; or you can take the Bible as poetry, assembled by humans. But regardless of which side you want to take, the arguments about “inconsistency” are irrelevant.

Genesis was written down somewhere around 1250 BC (if by Moses) or compiled around 1000 BC, perhaps as late as 700 BC (if by poets). Two points:

(a) It has endured all that time. Do you think you are the first to notice little inconsistencies? Don’t you think that in the last three millenia, all those have been noticed and resolved/answered? Do you think you’re going to shake someone’s faith by pointing out some trivial point?
… And that works both ways. If we found proof positive that Genesis was written down by 1200 BC, would that shake your belief that it was a composite written by multiple authors? No? Then why do you think that finding a fragment that you don’t understand will shake the belief of those who think the books is Divinely Authored?

(b) Regardless of authorship, it was clearly written in the language and style and convention of its time. Today, we want an historic account to be written in chronological order; but that was not true of the era before Thucydides or Heroditus. Thus, we have the story of Cain and Abel; and later we have the comment that “Adam lived 800 years after Seth was born and had many sons and daughters.” SO, what’s the difficulty in saying that by the time Cain killed Abel, there were a few hundred years of Adam’s OTHER children (males and females) populating the rest of the world?

The text as a whole displays a remarkable consistency – almost unbelievable, if it was the result of multiple authors. But it is not written in a style contemporary to us; to the contrary, the archaic and ancient style is hard to come to grips with. Words are used sparsely, sparingly; only necessary information is given. There are no long descriptions of people or of terrain (in fact, there are very few desciptions) or of cuisine or of pyramid-building techniques. And ideas are not always presented in chronological order.

If you believe in a single Divine Author, then all these picky little seeming-contradictions can be resolved. If you believe in multiple authors, then surely there was eventually a single Editor (usually called the Redactor) who knitted it all together – do you think he was stupid, in not noticing “contradictions”? The Redactor (whether human or divine) was surely one of the greatest poets of all time, and his work has endured (is still read by a large audience) longer than the work of any other author. Give him credit for knowing what he was doing.

My final rant on this topic is to PROVE conclusively that the authorship/redaction of the Bible is divine. Ready?

If you believe God wrote it, word for word, then I don’t need to prove anything to you.

If you believe God inspired people to write it, word for word, then we are agreed that the ultimate author/redactor is divine inspiration.

OK, let’s assume there were multiple authors. They wrote some of the greatest poetry that the world has known; it has moved people and been read continuously since 1000 BC (or, perhaps 700 BC, depending on which redaction theory you believe in). It has beautiful language, that has been referenced by almost every great writer, musician, painter, sculptor, or other artist in the history of the Western world. It contains thoughts far more profound than Socrates, 600 years before he spoke to Plato. It contains poetic imagery more brilliant than Shakespeare’s. I therefore put it to you that the term “divinely inspired” is appropriate – even if you are an atheist. This is poetry that arises from the deepest creativity of the human spirit, that flows in imagery and imagination that has never been surpassed (and scarcely equalled); and even if there is no God, surely artistry and poetry is the spirit of the divine. QED.

OK, off my soapbox.

:standingovation:

Wonderful, CKDextHavn. Simply wonderful.

The reason some of us keep on bringing up these “picky little seeming-contradictions” is that we are subjected to evangelism by people who proclaim the inerrancy and absolute consistency of the Bible. Furthermore, many, though not all, of the people doing this have various political agendas, ranging from teaching “scientific” creationism in public schools to supporting the continued criminalization of certain kinds of private, consensual sex by adults. These policy proposals are invariably explicitly or implicitly justified by reference to the “infallible Word of God”. Now, it’s true that these people aren’t generally Orthodox Jews, they’re generally evangelical Christians of various stripes. However, evangelical Christians also accept the Bible of the Jews as part of their Bible, so in arguing with aggressive Christians, nonbelievers and secularists and liberal believers may wind up arguing with theologically conservative Jews as well. It’s probably also true that if the various sorts of Christian evangelists were all as resolutely apolitical as, say, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, then a lot more nonbelievers would be content to simply say “Well, I don’t agree with your point of view, but thanks for offering to share”.

I assume by “the text as whole” you are referring to Genesis. The inconsistencies–in style, vocabulary, and content–between the two creation stories in Genesis have been hashed out time and time again, including (I am sure) many times on this message board. Simply making a bald assertion to the contrary isn’t going to be enough to convince those of us who notice those contradictions that they aren’t there.

I think it’s questionable that these “little incosistencies” have been the subject of free and open debate for the last three millennia. The Bible itself has some fairly bloodthirsty things to say about blasphemers and enticers to the worship of false gods. I also don’t really know what the attitude of early believers was to those stories. Many societies seem to have had no problem accepting myths about their gods that appear to me blatantly contradictory. I don’t know if people in those cultures used the same sorts of rationalizations as modern fundamentalists, or if they simply looked at things in a way which I don’t understand.

During the period in Western Civilization when Christianity was legally established, I daresay it would definitely have been quite unhealthy to go around questioning the Word of God, and asserting that it was really just the writings of assorted fallible human beings. During the last two or three centuries, human beings in the Christian-dominated parts of the world have been able to win for themselves the right to question sacred authorities without being subjected to being burned at the stake and similar unpleasantnesses. During that time, belief in the absolute authority of the Bible and similar works has eroded. Those who insist on the inerrancy of Scripture have, once stripped of their ability to use force to win arguments, employed an amazing variety of convoluted “explanations” of this or that blatant contradiction in the inerrant Word of God. Those of us on the other side of the debate have in turn pointed out the flaws in those “explanations”. Do you think you are the first to come up with these explanations/rationalizations for these “little inconsistencies”?

It depends. If that person’s faith is grounded upon the absolute inviolability of the inerrancy of their Sacred Scripture, then “trivial points”–and not all Biblical contradictions concern trivial points–are going to be very important. I’d also point out that Christian fundamentalists may find the creation stories of Genesis more important than even very Orthodox Jews do, because of the central “Original Sin in the Garden of Eden–>Fall of Man–>Redemption through the Resurrection of Christ” narrative of evangelical Christianity. Even to an Orthodox Jew, it may be sufficient to say “God created the world” and not get too worked up about the details. To some Christians, if there is no literal fall, this raises questions about the literal resurrection and atonement of Christ.

Finally, I wonder how CKDextHavn views these sorts of arguments concerning the inerrancy and consistency of the New Testament. I’m sure many fundamentalist Christians would make precisely the same arguments for the Gospels. Do you concede that the Gospels are also “remarkably consistent” to the point of being clearly of Divine authorship?

As I don’t seem to fall into any of the camps posting previously, I thought I’d put in my 2 cents worth.

  1. The origin of the Bible. I believe the Bible to be divinely inspired. That implies to me that God provided the ideas to men, who wrote them down as best they understood them. That would require any serious seeker of truth to read using their common sense.
  2. Cain’s wife etc. Genisis 1:24 says" And God said,“Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds:…”. Then verse 26 says" Let us make man in our image". Then Genisis 3:19 says “…for dust you are and to dust you will return.” From this I have no problem with mankind being biologicallly produced by the process of evolution, then being made spiritually alive and aware by God. Thus mankind, as exists now, is biologically descended as expained by modern science, and spiritually aware because of an act of God. So, we have a scenario where God sets life in motion on the planet, and then lets natural laws produce an animal capable of speech and using tools, and then beathes spiritual life into one of them, then more according to relationships. Thus man is given a wife from his side. It would seem logical that a man, given spiritual awareness, would go nuts if not able to share that with his mate.
  3. From this, one gets the traditional (I beleive) division of mankinds nature into, body, soul, and spirit. Thus mankind is a hybrid, the soul being what comes into being when a sentient animal is given spiritual awareness. I believe also that this is what gives man the ability to effect the universe around him/her, for which a good word is, I believe, magic.

The burden of proof does not require that an assumption be disproved, especially in this context.

If I find some book which claims that the universe was sneezed out of the noze of a being called the Great Green Arklesezure, and no-one can disprove that, is it true? Of course not.

MEB, you raise some good points (as usual). I have a few comments in response… sorry for the length.

First, on the consistency of the text: I mean subject matter and thematic content, not writing style, grammar, or presentation of detail. Sorry about not being clear.

NOTE: For this argument, I am working from the multiple-author theory. Example: The Flood story, separated into the two authors usually assigned to that story, still have remarkable consistency: Noah and family build an ark, bring in animals, rain destroys world, God takes care of them, they emerge unscathed. The differences in the two authors are things like, how many days did it rain, how many of each kind of animal were brought into the Ark, etc. The base story itself is (fairly clearly) an original that had taken on slightly different variants through oral transmission – much as if someone were to take two different versions of Snow White and knit them together. The base story, however, remains the same.

Similarly with the Joseph story, also a composite, but again the basic story is the same: brothers sell Joseph into slavery in Egypt, whether to Midianites or Ishmaelites.

Those are the stories that are composites from the two authors. The stories that are from separate authors but placed side by side, still have an astounding consistency in plot, theme, meaning, and context.

What that says to me is that the Redactor had a solid and consistent thematic approach that infused his work. He stands, in my mind, as one of the great poetic geniuses of all time: he was working with slightly different traditions, slightly different variants, and he knitted them together into a work with such a single artistic vision, that even today we are debating whether it was the work of one Author or many.

And, no, I wasn’t talking about Genesis alone, I was talking about the entire Torah, first five books.

Have the “inconsistencies” been “freely debated”? I don’t know about within Christian circles, where there were certainly centuries of repression of unpopular ideas, but within the Jewish world, there was certainly free debate. It’s called the the Talmud, a collection of debates and discussions over meanings; and there are also Midrashim, interpretations and reading “between the lines” of the text.

Targeting Christian literalists: As I say, the inconsistences [in the Pentateuch] have all been resolved or answered by rabbinic scholars, long ago. It seems to me that your approach to discussions with Christian fundamentalists is to present these inconsistencies to them, in hopes of shaking their faith in an inviolate text. That’s really just playing to their ignorance. If they’d studied the text, and the commentaries upon the text, they would have answers to the inconsistencies you are pointing out.

Now, if your purpose is to push them into true scholarship and study, then well and good. But if your purpose is to trick them into abandoning their belief by presenting arguments to which they don’t know (haven’t learned) the answers… that seems somehow shabby to me.

Now, they try to play the same trick in reverse, of course. All those idiotic claims about a “missing day” that proves the Bible, or finding a piece of Noah’s ark (or was it his cousin, Jonah of Ark?), or whatever. They use these tricks to try to convert people, playing on their ignorance. I find that … well… shoddy. And I react negatively to what I perceive as the same trick played on them. Do unto others as they did unto you?

On the consistency of the New Testament: I do not take a stand. I am not well enough versed to comment on the internal consistency. I do think it’s amusing that someone could take both Old Testament and New Testament to be word-perfect and infallible, since the New Tesatment CLEARLY contradicts and overturns parts of the Old Testament. Laws that God says are eternal and unchangable in the Old Testament, then Paul says, “Oh, well, forget it, we’ve changed them.” I’m amazed at the mind that can claim infallibility/perfection for BOTH texts.

Now, I am aware of “minor inconsistencies” (like, if Jesus was born in Bethlehem, howcome he’s said to be from Nazareth?) On the other hand, the New Testament is asserted to be the works of different authors. The New Testament was compiled, with inconsistent books thrown out (or relegated to the Apocrypha, full of miraculous tales, leading to the saying, “Apocrypha of miracles” … but I digress. Where was I?) No one tried to edit the individual texts, each text has its own author; the committee only accepted or rejected texts.

In contrast, the Redactor of the Torah (assuming the multiple author approach) did, in fact, edit: sometimes weaving two versions together into one, sometimes putting two versions side-by-side, sometimes sprinkling the two versions far apart in the text, sometimes adding explanatory comments. That editing was done either by 1000 BC or by 700 BC, depending on which theory you accept. Any works that were discarded by the Redactor are long lost.

So, I put the Redactor up there among the great poets of all time, but I have no similar individual to credit the New Testament to.

Conclusion: I do understand the annoyance of being plagued by people who try to take the texts literally but who don’t really know what they’re talking about, they’re just trying to convert you. I understand the desire to confound them by presenting them with concepts they haven’t met before. I would prefer those concepts be on a large scale – conceptual, philosophic – rather than on a gnit-picking scale.

CKDextHavn:

While I appreciate the fact that some of these debates grow tiresome as they go around for the umpteenth time, I personally do still like them. It’s interesting to hear the reasons that people believe what they do, and even though 50 of the posts are rehashings of the same old things that have been said before, the 51st will contain something new to me. I understand the frustration that one feels when someone challenges you on an issue you feel you have satisfactorily explained and defended many times before. (How many times have there been threads saying the same old things about evolution and thermodynamics after all?) Nevertheless, there’s always someone new reading, if not posting, these boards. And even though these issues have been debated for thousands of years, and will be for years to come, we haven’t been around to listen to them. Reading the conclusions of an argument aren’t nearly as illustrative as following an argument along and considering the individual points as they are made.

I just realized that we have gotten sidetracked from the OP.

I hope that cmkeller or Zev can help me out because I don’t have a Chumash here at the office, but, to answer Satan’s original question:

**

Cain and Abel both married women (obviously). In the original Hebrew, the verse which describes their birth contains words which the classical Commentators (Rashi and others) identify as being superfluous. I believe the verse says, “et Kayin v’et Hevel.” Translated word for word, this would mean something like, “Eve gave birth to Cain and gave birth to Abel” instead of, “…gave birth to Cain and Abel.”

The Commentators point to the extra language and say that it implies the birth of other, unnamed yet still important people, girls. So, yes, these people married their siblings, but, as has already been pointed out in this thread (by Dex?), it’s not like they had any choice, right?

HTH!

I still don’t get why, even if this is the word of God, you have to take it literally.

You are on the right track sdimbert.
Genesis 4:1 …vatailed es kayin… …and she gave birth to Cain…

Genesis 4:2 …vatoseph laledes es achiv as Hevel… and she continued to give birth to his brother, to Abel.

The Hebrew word es, despite my translation, does not mean “to.” It is a conjunctive word that does not have an English translation. In other contexts, it could mean “the.” There are probably others as well that I just cannot think of at this moment.

The Rabbis learned from the extra word “es” (which is not necessary… it could have said vatoseph laledes es achiv, Hevel) that an extra sister was born with Abel.

Zev Steinhardt

Oooh – so they are twins. I guess that answers the nature versus nurture thing.