One problem with this: in Gen. 17:17, Abraham expresses wonderment at the fact that a 100-year-old man and a 90-year-old woman could have a child. If we halve the ages, then what’s so unusual about a 50-year-old man siring children? That happens fairly often, after all (even in those pre-Viagra days :)).
Also, for example, halving ages would result in Joseph being 15 years old (instead of 30 - Gen. 41:46) when Pharaoh appointed him as his agriculture czar.
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*Originally posted by zev_steinhardt *
Jewish tradition notes the fact that Methuselah died in the same year as the flood. The traditional explanation is that he died on the day the flood was supposed to start. The tradition goes on to state that God delayed the start of the flood for seven days (Genesis 7:4) to observe a mourning period for Methuselah.
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That’s because he’s a caring Deity (unless you count the babies and wildlife he drowned the next week).
While Jewish tradition does state that Na’amah was the wife of Noah, she was not his half-sister. Noah was descended from Seth, while Na’amah was descended from Cain.
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Does Graves give a source for this? I’ve never heard of this.
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I’m not sure, but I’ll be glad to check it for you. I don’t have access to the book at the moment but I can get it this weekend.
This should be clarified. Under Jewish law, a non-Jew is allowed to marry a paternal half-sibling, but not a maternal half-sibling. People before the revelation at Sinai had the status of non-Jews with regard to the laws.
Jacob would have been well before Sinai, of course.
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This is not within normative Jewish thought either. Normative Jewish thought identifies Sarai with Yiscah (Genesis 11:27), thus meaning that Abram married his neice (since Yiscah/Sarai was Haran’s daughter).
Even the Bible identifies her as his half sister (Genesis 20:12). So in Jewish thought, she was a sister to Lot? Rebekah was also descended through Haran, wasn’t she?
On a completely different topic, perhaps you can help me: I once read a Hebrew poem translated from Ladino but based on a much older oral source about a hunting trip taken by Solomon and the archangel Michael. (Is there such a thing as an archangel in Hebrew mythology, or is the hierarchy a Christian concept?) I do not know its title and I can’t find information on it in the print available to me or on the Internet. Do you happen to know what I’m speaking of?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zev_steinhardt *
Jewish tradition notes the fact that Methuselah died in the same year as the flood. The traditional explanation is that he died on the day the flood was supposed to start. The tradition goes on to state that God delayed the start of the flood for seven days (Genesis 7:4) to observe a mourning period for Methuselah.
**
That’s because he’s a caring Deity (unless you count the babies and wildlife he drowned the next week).
While Jewish tradition does state that Na’amah was the wife of Noah, she was not his half-sister. Noah was descended from Seth, while Na’amah was descended from Cain.
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Does Graves give a source for this? I’ve never heard of this.
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I’m not sure, but I’ll be glad to check it for you. I don’t have access to the book at the moment but I can get it this weekend.
This should be clarified. Under Jewish law, a non-Jew is allowed to marry a paternal half-sibling, but not a maternal half-sibling. People before the revelation at Sinai had the status of non-Jews with regard to the laws.
Jacob would have been well before Sinai, of course.
**
This is not within normative Jewish thought either. Normative Jewish thought identifies Sarai with Yiscah (Genesis 11:27), thus meaning that Abram married his neice (since Yiscah/Sarai was Haran’s daughter).
Even the Bible identifies her as his half sister (Genesis 20:12). So in Jewish thought, she was a sister to Lot? Rebekah was also descended through Haran, wasn’t she?
On a completely different topic, perhaps you can help me: I once read a Hebrew poem translated from Ladino but based on a much older oral source about a hunting trip taken by Solomon and the archangel Michael. (Is there such a thing as an archangel in Hebrew mythology, or is the hierarchy a Christian concept?) I do not know its title and I can’t find information on it in the print available to me or on the Internet. Do you happen to know what I’m speaking of?
Sorry about the technical problems; I’m having quelle mondo technical problems on this end.
I think Abrarham’s surprise was less at his own age (for he would go on to have 6 more sons and perhaps some daughters) but at the age of his wife. Today, a 50 year old man who knows that he is fertile (as Abe did courtesy of Hagar) would probably be amazed if told that he and his 45 year old wife, who had been married since they were young without so much as a miscarriage) were going to have many descendants.
As for Joseph, 15 would have been an adult at the time. Ramses had a harem and was governor of a province by the time he was nine (though having a father who was pharoah probably helped him out a bit), while Tut (who may or may not have been the son of a pharoah- paternity uncertain) was made pharoah of all Egypt as a prepubescant boy.
Looking up some info on Ashmedai, Na’amah is always listed as his mother, but his father varies from source to source. In some accounts he is sired by Sammael (to whom, in some accounts, Na’amah is one of four wives), while in others he is the product of incest with Tubal Cain, and in others the product of Na’amah’s alliance with a Nephilim named Shamdam (thank you Na’am). My opinion: Na’amah was a big ol ho and didn’t know who her demon’s daddy be.
As late as the last Herodians, uncle-niece marriages were extremely common. (Drawing the Herodian genealogy is a nightmare; Salome of John the Baptist fame, for instance, was the granddaughter, greatgrandaughter, daughter-in-law, grandniece and cousin of Herod the Great.) I read an article once about the incestuous marriages conducted by Sephardic immigrants to Israel from Northern Africa in the 1940s-1960s and how they infuriated the Ashkenazi Jews who already looked upon the often polygamous Moroccan and Ethiopian nomadic Jews as the Judaic equivalent of whitetrash. I wonder if it still occurs.
A query about Genesis:
Lamech (the son of Methushael, as opposed to his cousin Lamech the son of Methusaleh) is the father of Jubal, called “the father of all who live in tents”, while his other son Jabal is called “the father of all who play the harp and flute”. Since humanity was wiped out in that same generation, how is this? (The only explanation I can hypothesize is that one of Noah’s sons married Jabal’s daughter while another married Jubal’s daughter, but even so- there were Jews who lived in tents (Abraham, the Israelites of the Exodus) and there were those who played instruments (David, Deborah), so the ancestry would be a bit mixed.
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*Originally posted by W. Panic Snopes *
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Jacob would have been well before Sinai, of course.
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Correct. The only point I was trying to make was that Jacob’s sons did not marry thier own twins, but their half-brother’s twins, something that was permitted at that time.
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True. However, often Biblical personages use “brother” or “sister” when it is not literally meant. See Genesis 29:15. Laban calls Jacob his “brother” when he is, in fact, his uncle.
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Or a half sister. We don’t know who their mothers were.
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Correct. Haran’s other daughter, Milkah, married Haran’s brother, Nachor. Nachor and Milkah are the parents of Rebecca.
There are angels in Judaism, including Michael. I’m not familiar, however, with the poem you mention.
Zev Steinhardt
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What is the source for this? Again, this is something I have never encountered and doubt that it is mentioned in any of the classic Jewish commentaries (I could be wrong, however).
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Firstly, uncle - neice marriages were always permitted in Jewish law (aunt-nephew marriages are forbidden) and continue to be permitted to this day. However, in areas where such a union is prohibited by civil law (as in many [if not all] of the United States, then it becomes prohibited under Jewish law as well.
As for polygamy, it is forbidden to Ashkenazic Jews under the ban of Rabbeinu Gershom. Sephardim never accepted the ban and, as such, are permitted to marry additional wives (again, where not prohitibited by civil law).
I’m not aware of anyone looking at Sephardic Jews at “whitetrash.”
First of all “lives in tents” does not mean as opposed to nomads. It refers to someone who makes his living indoors [as a businessman, for example], rather than going out and hunting, farming, etc.
Secondly, “the father of” doesn’t mean in the literal sense. It means that he was either the first to practice or the first to have success at, or the inventor of that particular endeavor. Think of Alexander Cartwright as the “father of baseball” or George Washington as "the father of our country [point of fact - Washington had no children, so none of us are the children of George Washington].
Zev Steinhardt
I’m not aware of anyone looking at Sephardic Jews at "whitetrash."
There’s definitely a major discrepancy in the positions of authority held by Ashkenazim vs Sepharadim in Israel, is there not? And definitely some class consciousness between the German Jews, with higher education and standard of living, and the immigrants from North Africa who have a more primitive lifestyle. The co-existence, if not always peaceful, of tent and condo and camel and hummer is one of the most fascinating things about Zionism to me.
I speak no Hebrew (in fact I grew up in an area of the country where local merchants would try to get the attention of northern tourists by advertising “kosher ham” on signs outside their stores- they weren’t quite sure what kosher meant, but they knew it made people stop [mainly to take pictures]). Is the word for “father” in the literal sense the same as the word for “father” in the figurative sense?
The descriptions of Ashmedai that I’ve found so far are in encyclopedias of occultism and mythology. What I havent’ placed yet is that the Na’amah in question is the wife of Noah; it seems to be a case of multiplicity of names, though I’m positive that somewhere I’ve read a variant in which it is the same woman. I’ll find that source if I have to burn down Paris (which I’ve been meaning to do anyway).
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I’ll be honest and say that I don’t know. I do not live in Israel. It could be as you say, but I’ll have to defer to others to answer.
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That one’s easy. As I mentioned above, classic Jewish commentators place Na’amah as the wife of Noah.
Zev Steinhardt
Correction: they were the grandparents of Rebecca. They were the parents of Rebecca’s father, Bethuel.
Yeah, but the Na’amah Snopes is talking about could be a different person than the wife of Noah.
Can you tell us where the Bible says that Adam and Eve “had ONLY 2 sons”? I’m quite certain that it never says such a thing. In fact, Genesis 4:25 says that they had another son, by the name of Seth, and Genesis 5:4 says that Adam “had other sons and daughters.”
In other words, I think you’re laboring under a serious misperception here.
Zev wrote
**Firstly, uncle - neice marriages were always permitted in Jewish law (aunt-nephew marriages are forbidden) **
Is that Mosaic law? If so, it must have played with Moses’s psyche since (as I have no doubt you already know) he was the product of an aunt-nephew marriage. (Exodus 6:19-21)
In a coincidence worthy of Grimm, ANCIENT MYSTERIES tonight on the History Channel is about Cain. For those in the Eastern Standard Time zone, it’s next on at midnight; otherwise, check your local listings. And buy bonds. And don’t do drugs or swim an hour after eating.
On a non-related topic, I love this MB, and I hate to complain about something that’s pleasurable, fun, educational, and free, but am I the only person who it takes 20 minutes sometimes to post a message or is this a common problem?
On an even less relevant note, is anybody else here a fan of the SANDMAN comic strip? Cain and Abel are two of the side characters, both of them now attired as middle aged Edwardian gentlemen. Cain goes through eternity continually killing his brother (who invariably comes back to life).
In one issue, the Sandman (Morpheus, the incarnation of Dreams) must send an emissary to hell and chooses Cain to deliver it. Since Satan cannot be trusted to honor a flag of truce, he chooses Cain because of his mark.
Well, I remember that the Old Testament is not a factual book about historical events that are as remote as Cain’s supposed marriage but rather are about God’s relationship to the Israelites. Therefore, such picky details as where Cain’s wife came from fade into the background of mythology.
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That’s absolutely correct. However, Moses’ parents were married before the Revelation at Sinai (where the prohibition against aunt-nephew marriages was given).
Zev Steinhardt
Interesting parallel to Mohammed. Moses, who was his own cousin, was informed that the marriage of his parents was legally impermissible in the future, while Mohammed was informed that henceforth a man was limited to four wives at a time when he had at least six and probably more.
So is there any Hebrew tradition about Keturah, the third wife (or concubine) of Abraham? She’s one of those women who just suddenly appears, a teenager married to an old man, constantly pregnant and having to grin and wave as her sons are given goats and a Michelin Guide to Canaan; I’ve wondered if there are tales of where she came from or what became of her. (I’ve also always thought that the life of Abishag could be a great novel.)
Another thing I’ve wondered about Moses, assuming that a historical basis for him existed, and it seems not improbable that he did. He was adopted by the daughter of a pharoah (there’s a scholarly hypothesis that he was the product of a mixed marriage as such unions did occur and the children were looked down upon as half-breeds) and after attacking a royal authority figure adopted monotheism.
Moses would have lived sometime between the dynasty of Akhenaton and the dynasty of Ramses. It could be an intriguing thought that his adoptive (or biological) mother was one of the “missing” daughters of Akhenaton. (His four youngest daughters disappear from the historical record after his death.) Such a woman, even in spite of her father’s heresy, could still have been revered in the new dynasty, and would doubtlessly have loathed the new dynasty and perhaps wished to impart a bit of the Aton worship to a new generation.
I’ve also wondered if the Golden Calf debacle could be a synopsis of a much longer war between the new monotheistic movement and the Hebrews who worshipped other deities instead of or in addition to I AM. This would explain why it took a generation before they reached and conquered Canaan.
When is it proper to begin saying “Jew” as opposed to “Hebrew” btw? I know that Jew is derived from Judah where the priest class held power after the post-Solomon civil war, but was their religion significantly different? And are the terms Hasmonean and Maccabee interchangeable as it was the same dynasty?
Hasmonean and Maccabee are basically the same, although I believe “Maccabee” only really refers to Matthias and his sons. You would use “Hasmonean” to refer to the dynasty.
As to how the Northern and Southern Kingdoms were different religiously, for one thing, worship in the Southern Kingdom, especially sacrifice, was centered in the temple of Jerusalem. The north had shrines and places of worship in more places, including Dan and Bethel, where sacrifices could be brought. The south was more strict when it came to physical representations of G-d. There weren’t any statues or idols of Him. The north, on the other hand, was less strict. They put statues in their shrines, and while they didn’t portray G-d directly, they built statues of bulls or calves, as a symbol of Him. The north was also more religiously tolerant and henotheistic. You saw a wider variety of religious beliefs, and more northerners worshiped G-d and also, under Him, other gods.
Needless to say, the religion of the south became normative Judaism. The religion of the north disappeared.
W. Panic Snopes:
Midrashic tradition is that she is Hagar, who had improved her ways and Abraham re-married her. So she’s certainly no teenager, she knew how old Abraham was before she re-married him, and she was probably aware that Isaac had already been designated as Abraham’s significant heir prior to this second marriage.
Well, “Hebrew” is really only proper when referring to the people prior to their descent into Egypt. Following that, they were, as a nation, called “Israelite.” “Jew”, as you clearly know, is of more recent vintage.
The religious practices of the Northern and Southern kingdoms were certainly different, although in Jewish belief, the differences the Northern kingdom observed (such as the existence of calf-icons in Dan and Bethel) were sinful, and they should have actually been observing the same things.
Not really. Hasmonean is the proper name for the entire family/dynasty; Maccabee is more like the battalion name which really applies only to the original five Hasmonean brothers who fought the Greeks and expelled them from Israel.
Chaim Mattis Keller
"Midrashic tradition is that she is Hagar, who had improved her ways and Abraham re-married her. So she’s certainly no teenager, she knew how old Abraham was before she re-married him, and she was probably aware that Isaac had already been designated as Abraham’s significant heir prior to this second marriage. "
That’s fascinating. (I’m not being sarcastic.)
Can anybody recommend some good English language book on the Midrash? I find all of this incredibly interesting.