# Calculations made by animals and humans **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 15, 2022, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251 "2022-06-15T18:10:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/1 "2022-06-15T18:10:20Z")
Primarily I am thinking of pouncing or throwing things. Jumping spiders can jump up to 50 times their length and land on their prey. To me that would take some serious calculations. If you give a human something like a wiffle ball we will automatically calculate the drag and the distance we need to achieve. Monkeys and squirrels fly through trees with precision jumps all the time. Is this mathematically worked out in our brains before we act. Of course in the case of the jumping spider he still may only be jumping 12" , which may be more relevant than 50 times his body length. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/2 "2022-06-15T18:12:31Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > Is this mathematically worked out in our brains before we act. Yes. Is this a matter of opinion? What is the alternative hypothesis? > **[Motor cortex](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_cortex)** > > The motor cortex is the region of the cerebral cortex involved in the planning, control, and execution of voluntary movements. > The motor cortex is an area of the frontal lobe located in the posterior precentral gyrus immediately anterior to the central sulcus. > The motor cortex can be divided into three areas: > 1. The primary motor cortex is the main contributor to generating neural impulses that pass down to the spinal cord and control the execution of movement. However, some of the other motor... > **[Motor Coordination & the Brain - Maze Engineers.](https://maze.conductscience.com/motor-coordination-the-brain/)** > > A number of key regions in the brain contribute to the coordination of motor behaviors. Learn more about the function that each region is believed to serve ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/3 "2022-06-15T18:15:16Z")
Another thing I have noticed is that if I am trying to herd a wild animal of some kind into a corner where I can catch him all I have to do is respond to his movements with right and left turns as I slowly move forward in the direction I want to herd them. I might be 200 yards away but they are still responding to my body language trying to calculate if they can move fast enough to get past me. Animals tend to over estimate a humans speed in a situation like this because if they underestimate they will get caught. It seems like there is a fair amount of logic going on in the animal world. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/4 "2022-06-15T18:24:52Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > It seems like there is a fair amount of logic going on in the animal world. You understand that virtually all of this computation is _unconscious_, right? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/5 "2022-06-15T18:30:55Z")
An interesting example is the behavior of sheep where an unfenced road crosses open moorland. They exhibit what seems like odd behavior when avoiding a vehicle - they will run _along the road_ away from the vehicle, and only at the very last minute (when you’re about to slam on the brakes to avoid hitting them) will they dodge sideways off the road. But if you think about this carefully, this is clearly an evolutionary adaptation to optimize predator evasion. Predators are not restricted to roads, so the road itself is not significant. What they are doing is running _directly away_ from the vehicle that is perceived as an approaching predator. It makes no sense to turn and run laterally when the predator is far away, because the predator will turn diagonally, cut the corner and intercept them. The optimal strategy is to run directly away from the predator, and only dodge sideways if the predator is about to make the catch. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/6 "2022-06-15T18:31:51Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > You understand that virtually all of this computation is _unconscious_, right? Of course I do but there is still a computation made. Some of those are pretty complicated computations. It makes me think that average humans have a lot more in them than they generally achieve. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/7 "2022-06-15T18:36:06Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > It makes me think that average humans have a lot more in them than they generally achieve. There _are_ exceptionally well coordinated human athletes - Michael Jordan, Ayrton Senna, Roger Federer, etc. And thousands of less talented people who aspire to the same level, work extremely hard at it, but fall short. What makes you think that average humans are underperforming their potential? ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/8 "2022-06-15T18:44:22Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > There _are_ exceptionally well coordinated human athletes - Michael Jordan, Ayrton Senna, Roger Federer, etc. And thousands of less talented people who aspire to the same level, work extremely hard at it, but fall short. What makes you think that average humans are underperforming their potential? I was thinking more about advanced mathematics which most of us steer away from. I suspect something is wrong in our mindset on how we approach math. I made a once in a thousand lifetimes archery shot one time. I realize it was mostly luck but I still wonder how much of it was calculated accurately. It would seem if we have the ability to unconsciously calculate something we should be able to consciously calculate it also, but we are somewhat limited by the expressions we need to use. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/9 "2022-06-15T18:50:35Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I was thinking more about advanced mathematics which most of us steer away from. I suspect something is wrong in our mindset on how we approach math. Again, the computation is _unconscious_. Learning advanced mathematics will not improve your physical coordination. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/10 "2022-06-15T18:51:13Z")
Besides the calculations to overcome a physical challenge, what about risk/reward calculations? For example, grizzly bears and moose live in the same habitat, but unless the bear is really hungry, or the moose is severely compromised, bear rarely take down an adult moose (the babies are fair game, tho). Is the bear looking at that healthy adult moose and thinking “Nah, not worth it”, but the deeper calculation being “I may get seriously hurt by that moose, maybe I better stick to smaller game”? ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/11 "2022-06-15T18:52:40Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I was thinking more about advanced mathematics which most of us steer away from. I suspect something is wrong in our mindset on how we approach math. I made a once in a thousand lifetimes archery shot one time. I realize it was mostly luck but I still wonder how much of it was calculated accurately. It would seem if we have the ability to unconsciously calculate something we should be able to consciously calculate it also, but we are somewhat limited by the expressions we need to use. The part of the brain that goes through the slow process of performing arithmetic calculations based on rules and order of operations (2y + 3x/57.2=x) is an entirely different part of the brain than the virtually instantaneous proprioceptive part that judges how a body jumps and moves through space. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/12 "2022-06-15T19:06:27Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > > [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > > > Is this mathematically worked out in our brains before we act. > > Yes. Is this a matter of opinion? What is the alternative hypothesis? Well, that’s the issue, isn’t it? What does “_mathematically_ worked out” mean in this context; and what other ways could it be worked out instead? ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/13 "2022-06-15T19:10:46Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > Besides the calculations to overcome a physical challenge, what about risk/reward calculations? For example, grizzly bears and moose live in the same habitat, but unless the bear is really hungry, or the moose is severely compromised, bear rarely take down an adult moose (the babies are fair game, tho). Is the bear looking at that healthy adult moose and thinking “Nah, not worth it”, but the deeper calculation being “I may get seriously hurt by that moose, maybe I better stick to smaller game”? Yes, these are things all forms of life have to deal with everyday, they are calculating risks. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/14 "2022-06-15T19:12:02Z")
The calculation is likely not happening using the same methods you might use consciously. Your brain isn’t doing numerical arithmetic with the problem, it more likely something like a mashup of neural network simulation of an [analogue computation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_computer) ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/15 "2022-06-15T19:12:48Z")
One of the points in this thread relate to another thread where we were talking about other species becoming advanced life forms. I have to wonder if a life form could be very advanced but not in the way humans think or reason. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/16 "2022-06-15T19:17:14Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > What does “_mathematically_ worked out” mean in this context; and what other ways could it be worked out instead? Our brains _must_ be carrying out complex calculations to enable physical coordination. How else could it be? The pathways to do this came about through adaptive evolution, so it’s not like _learned_ mathematics that we do consciously. Even the stupidest human who cannot consciously evaluate two plus two is, nevertheless, carrying out unconscious complex mathematical calculations when (say) catching a ball. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/17 "2022-06-15T19:20:47Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I have to wonder if a life form could be very advanced but not in the way humans think or reason. Aliens will no doubt be mysterious and all that. What does this have to do with your OP in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/18 "2022-06-15T19:24:44Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I have to wonder if a life form could be very advanced but not in the way humans think or reason. Yes, of course. Bats are extremely advanced in the use of sonar. Soaring birds are very advanced at using thermals to float for hours. Elephants’ trunks are extremely sensitive and extremely strong. Bloodhounds are amazing at discerning smells. This isn’t controversial. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/19 "2022-06-15T19:24:54Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Aliens will no doubt be mysterious and all that. What does this have to do with your OP in this thread? Well the op kind of establishes that complex calculations can be made totally unconsciously. It makes me wonder just how complex unconscious behavior could become and could it be more powerful than conscious calculations. . ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2022, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/20 "2022-06-15T19:29:00Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > It makes me wonder just how complex unconscious behavior could become and could it be more powerful than conscious calculations. Unconscious behavior obviously evolved _long before_ consciousness. And the great majority of what our brains do is still unconscious. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251.md?page=2)