# Calculations made by animals and humans **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 15, 2022, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251 "2022-06-15T18:10:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/21 "2022-06-16T03:00:47Z")
I saw an article once, a long time ago, on this. It described the elaborate mathematical computations that our brains must be implicitly making in order to do the kinds of tasks mentioned in this thread. For example, to catch a frisbee, we have to continually judge its distance at it approaches us, using as input the angle of parallax between our left and right eyes, and some elaborate trigonometry. Even honeybees, in navigating by the sun, and then reporting back to the hive with their waggle dances, are doing some impressive mathematical processing. (Their waggle dance even adjusts for the advancing position of the sun in the sky.) Maybe natural biological brains are quantum computer systems? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/22 "2022-06-16T04:01:32Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > quantum I was really enjoying that post until then… ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/23 "2022-06-16T04:02:39Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > natural biological brains are quantum computer systems? They just kind of looked that way doesn’t it and they probably have the potential to be almost infinitely more powerful than they are now genetically speaking ---
**Author:** ![sunstone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunstone/32/3372_2.png) [@sunstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sunstone)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/24 "2022-06-16T04:05:18Z")
The most striking example that comes to mind immediately is the peregrine falcon. When in a stoop (diving down at prey), they can reach 200+ mph. Imagine zooming in on your target at that stage. If prey on or near the ground, there is the danger of flying into the ground, but if the falcon pulls out too soon, the prey is missed. The same is true for hitting prey in mid air. This requires reactions on the part of the falcon that is measured in milliseconds. Note that this is a reaction rather than a hard wired reflex. Reflexes like a knee jerk when the doctor taps a mallet near the kneecap are preexisting neural pathways that occur in the spine and occur without thought. This is automatic and very fast. basically the pathway goes from a pressure receptor in the tendon to your spinal cord, and is automatically sent out a motor nerve to cause a leg muscle to contract, thereby moving the leg. Responses are more complicated and flexible; an example might be when you drop a knife and don’t attempt to catch it as you might do with another harmless object…in fact in this case you might even move your feet to avoid the knife hitting a foot. These can be fast, but involve processing with the eyes, brain, etc. The falcon is amazing with the responses involved in flight. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/25 "2022-06-16T05:27:32Z")
Years and years ago, I read a fascinating article about the ability of dogs to subconsciously do calculus when they catch a ball or a frisbee. ---
**Author:** ![Didi44](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47c2d/32.png) [@Didi44](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Didi44)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/26 "2022-06-16T05:43:39Z")
Cite or it wasn’t real! There was a post on the defunct Mythbusters forum where a kid who obviously just learned geometry claimed that dogs new geometry because they would take the shortest path on the shore when retrieving an object thrown in the water. This was also claimed in one of those incredible/extraordinary claims shows on Discovery or the History channel. Despite everyone clearly explaining that the action was just inbreed hunting behavior with no conscious calculations on the part of the dog, the kid insisted “I WANT THE MYTHBUSTERS TO TEST IT!”. This type of reaction was the main reason the forum was closed. I saw real life amazing nature escape once. A small bird was diving at a butterfly in flight. The butterfly made a slow turn mid-flight and the bird missed it by inches. Never then and never now have I considered either creature made a conscious calculation of their move. I highly suspect the butterfly just caught a lucky updraft that moved it out of the way. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/27 "2022-06-16T13:37:10Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Maybe natural biological brains are quantum computer systems? I can’t tell if you’re joking or not, but if you’re not, then…no they aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/28 "2022-06-16T13:56:21Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > Years and years ago, I read a fascinating article about the ability of dogs to subconsciously do calculus when they catch a ball or a frisbee. Some dogs, certainly. Others (like our beloved pointer mix) not so much. The number of frisbees that bounced off her head … ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/29 "2022-06-16T14:21:43Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > What makes you think that average humans are underperforming their potential? I am considering recommending this recent science documentary > **[Lucy (2014 film)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_(2014_film))** > > Lucy is a 2014 French science fiction action film written and directed by Luc Besson for his company EuropaCorp, and produced by his wife, Virginie Besson-Silla. It is an English-language film shot in Taipei, Paris, and New York City. It stars Scarlett Johansson, Morgan Freeman, Choi Min-sik, and Amr Waked. Johansson portrays the titular character, a woman who gains psychokinetic abilities when a nootropic, psychedelic drug is absorbed into her bloodstream. > The film was released on 25 July 20... ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/30 "2022-06-16T14:31:01Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > The calculation is likely not happening using the same methods you might use consciously. Your brain isn’t doing numerical arithmetic with the problem, it more likely something like a mashup of neural network simulation of an [analogue computation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_computer) This, totally this. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/31 "2022-06-16T16:01:49Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Learning advanced mathematics will not improve your physical coordination. I don’t know that this is true. I became much more coordinated after I learned calculus and partial differential equations. It’s not that I was actually doing them in my head, but that understanding how they worked made me better understand how an object moved in free fall. I’m likely a small minority on this, but my ability to catch, throw, or hit a ball went up substantially once I understood how it was moving. People sometimes tell me they hate math. I tell them, “Catch!” and toss them something. I then explain that they use fairly complex math in order to catch it. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/32 "2022-06-16T16:20:05Z")
Is a simple lever performing division? Absolutely yes. Is it ‘doing math’? Depends on how you want to define ‘doing math’. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/33 "2022-06-16T16:26:22Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > It’s not that I was actually doing them in my head, but that understanding how they worked made me better understand how an object moved in free fall. You would get the same result just being shown the shape of a parabola without having the maths behind it explained, I’d warrant. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2022, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/34 "2022-06-16T17:24:59Z")
Yes this reminds me of an interaction that I had with a LaRouchie trying to convince me that soap bubbles were smarter than humans because by minimizing surface area they could solve integrals that mathematicians couldn’t (at least not in closed form). I don’t think we ever got to his main point about why this meant that LaRouche was wrongly convicted as we never got past this point. As far as what the various animals are doing, it is probably much closer to a simple look up table than it is to symbolic mathematics. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2022, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/35 "2022-06-17T20:50:42Z")
I can’t think of any animal that can accurately throw things, possibly a dolphin to some degree. But for the most part less intelligent animals simply can’t throw well. It would seem the next step after throwing would be launching things. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2022, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/36 "2022-06-17T21:23:22Z")
Well there are these guys who do something pretty close [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/jEojXgR_kP0/maxresdefault.jpg "How The Archerfish Guns Down Spiders With Spit") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEojXgR_kP0) ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2022, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/37 "2022-06-17T21:53:48Z")
I wonder if throwing well is more of a sign of intelligence than using tools? ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2022, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/38 "2022-06-17T22:44:14Z")
I think it more physiological. Neanderthals were, as far as I can see, as smart as homo sapiens but, because of the way their arms were built, they couldn’t throw a spear to save their lives. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2022, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/39 "2022-06-18T12:43:43Z")
I don’t know if it counts as throwing, but squirrels seem to have pretty good aim in dropping things on passerby’s heads. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2022, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251/40 "2022-06-18T13:07:41Z")
Research suggest that some animals **count**. [Here](https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2011/06/01/120587095/ants-that-count) is an article that describes how desert ants count their steps. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calculations-made-by-animals-and-humans/966251.md?page=3)