# Calderon wins in Mexico - a good result for the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2006, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069 "2006-07-03T17:43:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/21 "2006-07-07T14:50:04Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] How about you clean your own house and take responsibility for your own mess? No pushing the poor over the border to leech money out of the U.S., no blaming “drug money” for your corrupt system, no more sucking off the generosity of Los Estados Unitos? [/QUOTE] Who needs the drugs? Who buys the drugs? Whose money is it? Who hires illegal workers? Who takes advantage of their illegal status to screw them? Guess what? The answer to all of that is YOU. How about the US stop being so hypocritical and owning up to some responsibility for once in your history? You love to moralize but you can’t accept anything negative on your part. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/22 "2006-07-07T14:53:32Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] Heh. For some reason, one of the Google ads on this page is for live catch traps right now (I’m guessing because of El Presidente **FOX** ). I had a wild thought that maybe it was suggesting a solution to the illegal immigration problem: We should put huge, no-kill traps along the border. When an illegal comes along, SNAP!, we’d catch him and then we could humainly release him back in the wilds of Mexico to frolic with his own kind. 😛😛 [/QUOTE] An amazingly intelligent solution. I’d say there are strong undertones (overtones?) of bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/23 "2006-07-07T15:04:48Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] Who needs the drugs? Who buys the drugs? Whose money is it? Who hires illegal workers? Who takes advantage of their illegal status to screw them? Guess what? The answer to all of that is YOU. How about the US stop being so hypocritical and owning up to some responsibility for once in your history? You love to moralize but you can’t accept anything negative on your part. [/QUOTE] Who takes the bribes???Don’t blame me because your government is corrupt. As for illegal workers, I’ve already gone on record as saying we should kick every single one of them out of our country back to whatever country they are from, and severly punish employers who hire illegal workers. What more responsibility do you want? Guess what? Nobody has a RIGHT to come here. We ALLOW some people to emmingrate legally, by following our LAWS. It’s a PRIVILEGE. It may offend your your highly honed sense of entitlement, but we owe you neither jack nor shit. > [@CBEscapee](#): > > An amazingly intelligent solution. I’d say there are strong undertones (overtones?) of bigotry. I truly intelligent response. I’d say there are strong overtones of not having an inkling of an idea what the word “joke” means. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/24 "2006-07-07T15:14:52Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] Who takes the bribes???Don’t blame me because your government is corrupt. As for illegal workers, I’ve already gone on record as saying we should kick every single one of them out of our country back to whatever country they are from, and severly punish employers who hire illegal workers. What more responsibility do you want? [/QUOTE] So in your estimation offering an opinion is taking responsibility? Was that a joke too? [QUOTE=Weirddave] I truly intelligent response. I’d say there are strong overtones of not having an inkling of an idea what the word “joke” means. [/QUOTE] Your sense of humor fits your username. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/25 "2006-07-07T17:03:22Z")
Let’s not wander any closer to personal attacks, shall we? [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/26 "2006-07-07T20:18:40Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] Who needs the drugs? Who buys the drugs? Whose money is it? Who hires illegal workers? Who takes advantage of their illegal status to screw them? Guess what? The answer to all of that is YOU. How about the US stop being so hypocritical and owning up to some responsibility for once in your history? You love to moralize but you can’t accept anything negative on your part. [/QUOTE] I kind of expressed a similar sentiment above – the root cause is our fault morally. That doesn’t justify illegal entry; so the migrants themselves have the legal fault. I’ve never seen anything the indicates the government has an active program to expatriate its population. Corruption is going away – and as I answered in the other thread, **CBEscapee** , those cases are outside the scope of the current and future administration. Finger Fox and Calderon for something. Interesting that we share the same opinion regarding the immigration issue; especially suprising that you don’t see corruption getting lessened; that should be MY position as an outsider. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/27 "2006-07-07T20:47:47Z")
Take the case of PEMEX (the government owned oil company). In an era of rising crude prices, it somehow manages to LOSE money! I will credit Fox thought-he didn’t slip away to Switzerland with a bag full of cash. But Mexico will always be poor and messed up until the corruption is cleaned up. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/28 "2006-07-07T20:50:20Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] Who hires illegal workers? Who takes advantage of their illegal status to screw them. [/QUOTE] I have posted here several times that by-and-large “Illegals” are paid the same wages as legal braceros. It’s to protect the Empoye **r** , not the Employee of course. If the INS raids and they pay Jose (“Illegal”) $3 an hour and Miguel (Green carded) $6, then the INS can and will assume that the Employer knew that Jose was Illegal, which can result in large fines. But if the Employer pays them all the same, and accepts the same “papers” from all the employees, they have “plausible deniability”. Of course, there are exceptions. Can you show that - as a general rule- “illegals” are paid significantly less (or are “screwed”) compared to their green-carded brethren? But who takes money to smuggle the “Illegals” across the border, often without proper concern for their health and well-being? ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/29 "2006-07-07T21:13:57Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] Take the case of PEMEX (the government owned oil company). In an era of rising crude prices, it somehow manages to LOSE money! I will credit Fox thought-he didn’t slip away to Switzerland with a bag full of cash. But Mexico will always be poor and messed up until the corruption is cleaned up. [/QUOTE] Well, that’s one thing that the congress _wouldn’t_ allow Fox to fix. Fox is about private investment, but all of the leftists have this spiel whereby they accuse Fox and the PAN of selling out homeland – _vender la patria_. Of course there are the unions, too, that often have a veto power over anything approaching common sense. The PRD would centralize _even more_ of the country’s struggling industries on the guise of “it belongs to the people.” Didn’t we go through all of this poppycock in _Atlas Shrugged_? People are too quick to blame corruption – you’re talking about a relatively small amount of money that’s taken in regards to what’s needed to support an entire country on welfare – assuming you want to support a country on welfare. You’re better off teaching a man how to fish than just give him a fish, so to speak. There’s a causal connection, though: lots of people just won’t pay taxes for fear that it will be wasted on corruption. If people actually bothered to pay their taxes, there would be plenty of money for either (a) social programs if that’s what does it for you, and/or (b) encouraging industry through the development of advanced infrastructure, attracting business, attracting investment, and stabilizing your economy. The fear of corruption causes too many people not to pay their taxes. Hopefully one day _Hacienda_ (their “IRS”) will figure out how to catch on. (I paid a shit load of taxes for CY 2005 when it would have been super-easy to just skip out of the country and claim my foreign residence credit in the USA.) Now that’s not to say that corruption isn’t a problem – but it’s not the leading cause of Mexico’s ills. And it’s really, truly getting better. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/30 "2006-07-07T21:31:25Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] Take the case of PEMEX (the government owned oil company). In an era of rising crude prices, it somehow manages to LOSE money! [/QUOTE] “Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2006, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/31 "2006-07-07T21:34:08Z")
[QUOTE=Balthisar] Didn’t we go through all of this poppycock in _Atlas Shrugged_? [/QUOTE] 😕 And a clotted, psychotic, dystopian novel by one of the shrillest political crackpots of the 20th Century is relevant here **why?** ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/32 "2006-07-08T16:04:20Z")
[QUOTE=Balthisar] Well, that’s one thing that the congress _wouldn’t_ allow Fox to fix. Fox is about private investment, but all of the leftists have this spiel whereby they accuse Fox and the PAN of selling out homeland – _vender la patria_. Of course there are the unions, too, that often have a veto power over anything approaching common sense. The PRD would centralize _even more_ of the country’s struggling industries on the guise of “it belongs to the people.” Didn’t we go through all of this poppycock in _Atlas Shrugged_? People are too quick to blame corruption – you’re talking about a relatively small amount of money that’s taken in regards to what’s needed to support an entire country on welfare – assuming you want to support a country on welfare. You’re better off teaching a man how to fish than just give him a fish, so to speak. There’s a causal connection, though: lots of people just won’t pay taxes for fear that it will be wasted on corruption. If people actually bothered to pay their taxes, there would be plenty of money for either (a) social programs if that’s what does it for you, and/or (b) encouraging industry through the development of advanced infrastructure, attracting business, attracting investment, and stabilizing your economy. The fear of corruption causes too many people not to pay their taxes. Hopefully one day _Hacienda_ (their “IRS”) will figure out how to catch on. (I paid a shit load of taxes for CY 2005 when it would have been super-easy to just skip out of the country and claim my foreign residence credit in the USA.) Now that’s not to say that corruption isn’t a problem – but it’s not the leading cause of Mexico’s ills. And it’s really, truly getting better. [/QUOTE] No the PEMEX thing IS significant-so much money is stolen from the company that it cannot drill effectively-and an asset that should be generating cash and paying for schools, highways, housing, is instead going to bank accounts in Switzerland! Take ex-presidented Salinas de Gotari-he got caught with over $5 million in pilfered cash. Of of course, we shouldn’t criticize-but the poor of Mexico always lose from this sort of corruption. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/33 "2006-07-08T16:26:02Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] No the PEMEX thing IS significant-so much money is stolen from the company that it cannot drill effectively-and an asset that should be generating cash and paying for schools, highways, housing, is instead going to bank accounts in Switzerland! [/QUOTE] Has that been proven? And proven that it’s happening still? ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/34 "2006-07-08T18:35:18Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] No the PEMEX thing IS significant-so much money is stolen from the company that it cannot drill effectively-and an asset that should be generating cash and paying for schools, highways, housing, is instead going to bank accounts in Switzerland! Take ex-presidented Salinas de Gotari-he got caught with over $5 million in pilfered cash. Of of course, we shouldn’t criticize-but the poor of Mexico always lose from this sort of corruption. [/QUOTE] Yes PEMEX is rife with corruption but that isn’t the main reason it lacks funds for exploration and other projects. The federal government taxes PEMEX to death in order to make up budget deficits, similarly I think to how the US federal government makes use of Social Security funds. Carlos Salinas is rumored to have acquired a large fortune while president. But the money you are talking about in Switzerland wasn’t his but his brother Raul’s and it was far more than a measly 5 million. The source of that money has been attributed to several sources, drug money for one. His brother was known as Mr. Ten Per Cent for his “brokering” of government contracts and also helping with the sale of many nationalized companies such as Telmex, TV Azteca etc. BTW for all of the sanctimonious finger pointers around here criticizing corruption in Mexico, the American bank, Citibank, helped Raul, using fictitious names, move hundreds of millions of dollars through the US and into Swiss banks, at least one a subsidiary of Citibank. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/35 "2006-07-08T19:02:03Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] BTW for all of the sanctimonious finger pointers around here criticizing corruption in Mexico, the American bank, Citibank, helped Raul, using fictitious names, move hundreds of millions of dollars through the US and into Swiss banks, at least one a subsidiary of Citibank. [/QUOTE] Hey, there’s a difference between a thief and a fence! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/36 "2006-07-08T19:04:27Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Well, there will be a \*lot \* of difference. Obrador would have blamed everything bad in Mexico on the USA, and insisted that the USA open it’s borders to Migrant Mexican workers. On the other hand, Calderon will insist that the USA open it’s borders to Mexican Migrants, and blame everything bad in Mexico on the USA. [/QUOTE] Cute, however I believe that Obrador wanted to set up programs that would provide jobs for workers and keep them at home. This is contrary to what is implied above. It is his desire to keep the Mexicans at home, that appeals to me. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/37 "2006-07-08T19:38:09Z")
[QUOTE=kniz] Cute, however I believe that Obrador wanted to set up programs that would provide jobs for workers and keep them at home. This is contrary to what is implied above. It is his desire to keep the Mexicans at home, that appeals to me. 😉 [/QUOTE] Interesting this opinion. If you check Google News as of today, you’ll see a LOT of articles about how Calderon wants to keep NAFTA (PEJE wants to renegotiate it) which brings work to Mexico. You’ll also see his initial proposals for _keeping workers here_ (in Mexico is “here” for now) via cooperation with both the United States and Canada. The PAN is the party about creating jobs and wealth and keeping people here. _Obrador_ things he can keep power (err, I mean help the poor) by giving them a pittance every month and keeping them dependant on the government. That’s _not_ help; that’s serfdom. I have no proof, but I offer this: had Obrador won, I bet we’d see a change to the constitution whereby re-elections for presidents are now okay. Populist B.S.-artists are like that. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/38 "2006-07-08T20:17:15Z")
[QUOTE=Balthisar] If you check Google News as of today, you’ll see a LOT of articles about how Calderon wants to keep NAFTA (PEJE wants to renegotiate it) which brings work to Mexico. [/quote] Ermm . . . [No, it doesn’t, **Balthisar.**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=315669) ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/39 "2006-07-08T20:27:18Z")
[QUOTE=Balthisar] Interesting this opinion. If you check Google News as of today, you’ll see a LOT of articles about how Calderon wants to keep NAFTA (PEJE wants to renegotiate it) which brings work to Mexico. You’ll also see his initial proposals for _keeping workers here_ (in Mexico is “here” for now) via cooperation with both the United States and Canada. The PAN is the party about creating jobs and wealth and keeping people here. _Obrador_ things he can keep power (err, I mean help the poor) by giving them a pittance every month and keeping them dependant on the government. That’s _not_ help; that’s serfdom. I have no proof, but I offer this: had Obrador won, I bet we’d see a change to the constitution whereby re-elections for presidents are now okay. Populist B.S.-artists are like that. [/QUOTE] Balthisar, its’s obvious from this and other posts that while you have a good deal of knowledge of Mexico, it is mostly superficial and tinted by an American conciousness. The most glaring sign of this is refering to Lopez Obrador as “Obrador”. Your comment about a constitutional amendment regarding re-election is ridiculous on several fronts. The excesses of the porfiriato are still well known. Read a little Mexican history. Madero started the Mexican Revolution based on “sufragio efectivo, no reelección” as put forth in the Plan de San Luis. The people would not stand for it. Plus Congress would never go along. And there is nothing AMLO has ever said or done that even hints at him desiring this. As far as el Peje wanting to renegotiate NAFTA meaning he will elimanate jobs, have you ever given any thought to how much the huge American agricultural subsidies affect employment in Mexico? Not all jobs are manufacturing jobs are they? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/40 "2006-07-08T20:37:30Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] The most glaring sign of this is refering to Lopez Obrador as “Obrador”. [/QUOTE] Be fair! This is an English-language discussion board. Calling him “AMLO” would be too obscure. And the English-language media almost always refer to Latin public figures by one name, even if they’re known at home by their **two** last names. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069.md?page=3)