# Calderon wins in Mexico - a good result for the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2006, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069 "2006-07-03T17:43:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/41 "2006-07-08T20:46:34Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Be fair! This is an English-language discussion board. Calling him “AMLO” would be too obscure. And the English-language media almost always refer to Latin public figures by one name, even if they’re known at home by their **two** last names. [/QUOTe] Fine, then call him López which is his paternal last name and the proper one to use when using only one. After all, it’s Felipe Calderón Hinojosa. But that is something Balthisar, who I believe has a Mexican wife and has worked in Mexico should be well aware of. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/42 "2006-07-08T20:47:03Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Ermm . . . [No, it doesn’t, **Balthisar.**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=315669) [/QUOTE] Actually, the thread you linked to does say that NAFTA brought work to Mexico. From the link in the associated thread: > [@](#): > > Finally, graph 8 indicates that since NAFTA’s implementation and with the exception of the 1995 crisis, average GDP growth has been higher than in the previous 15 years. In addition, employment has risen considerably since 1996. The rapid economic recovery seems to be explained, in part, by Mexico’s integration into world trade, a process to which NAFTA has made a significant contribution. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/43 "2006-07-08T20:50:26Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] Actually, the thread you linked to does say that NAFTA brought work to Mexico. From the link in the associated thread: [/QUOTE] I recall that, but the general consensus of the thread seemed to be that, on balance, NAFTA has not done much good for the common people of Mexico. (It has done a **lot** of good for the business elite.) (And it has done a lot of good for the people . . . in Canada.) If you have contrary evidence, let’s see it. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/44 "2006-07-08T20:55:28Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] I recall that, but the general consensus of the thread seemed to be that, on balance, NAFTA has not done much good for the common people of Mexico. (It has done a **lot** of good for the business elite.) (And it has done a lot of good for the people . . . in Canada.) If you have contrary evidence, let’s see it. [/QUOTE] Well, there wasn’t any general consensus in that thread, especially about NAFTA’s effect on Mexico. The comment that NAFTA had benefitted mostly a small segment of the Mexican population was made by **modernhamlet** , and nobody else really commented on it one way or the other. Regardless, **Balthazar’s** comment was just that NAFTA had increased employment, and **modernhamlet’s** link showed it did. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/45 "2006-07-08T20:57:54Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] Well, there wasn’t any general consensus in that thread, especially about NAFTA’s effect on Mexico. The comment that NAFTA had benefitted mostly a small segment of the Mexican population was made by **modernhamlet** , and nobody else really commented on it one way or the other. Regardless, **Balthazar’s** comment was just that NAFTA had increased employment, and **modernhamlet’s** link showed it did. [/QUOTE] Well, at present – and we’re now **12** years into NAFTA – what do **you** think NAFTA has done for Mexico? And let’s get **CBEscapee’s** take on this, too! ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/46 "2006-07-08T21:48:22Z")
I think it has benefitted for the most part the upper and middle classes. The most notable effect is consumer goods that weren’t available or were prohibitively expensive are now more abundant and less expensive. These products are still a luxury to many, many people. I don’t think NAFTA has done anything to make wealth distribution any more equitable here. And that to many of us (not the PAN) is what needs changed. Contrary to what many around here believe, jobs aren’t all that scarce nor were they before NAFTA. The problem lies more in the wages these jobs offer. As an example, my daughter graduated from a prestigious private university last December and started working for an American company here in Guadalajara at a monthly salary of $8500mn (approx. $800usd). She has recieved calls from the US offering work as a nanny for $12usd an hour plus room and board which is more than twice what she earns here. As far as López Obrador wanting to renegotiate NAFTA, he has stated that he would not honor an agreement signed by Fox that will eliminate duties on corn and beans in 2008, something that will devastate many small farmers here that cannot compete with the **heavily** subsidized farmers in the US. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2006, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/47 "2006-07-08T21:55:36Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] As an example, my daughter graduated from a prestigious private university last December and started working for an American company here in Guadalajara at a monthly salary of $8500mn (approx. $800usd). She has recieved calls from the US offering work as a nanny for $12usd an hour plus room and board which is more than twice what she earns here. [/QUOTE] Tell her not to bother. She’s probably be **spending** more than twice as much just to live. (A fact a lot of would-be immigrants seem to overlook, and then they get a shock when they get here.) ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/48 "2006-07-09T01:33:41Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Tell her not to bother. She’s probably be **spending** more than twice as much just to live. (A fact a lot of would-be immigrants seem to overlook, and then they get a shock when they get here.) [/QUOTE] Well, if it’s legit, room and board are paid for. And $12 per hour at 40 hours a week is pretty good money with room and board paid for. But I’d be worried about a scam being perpetrated. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/49 "2006-07-09T01:48:21Z")
[QUOTE=Unregistered Bull] Well, if it’s legit, room and board are paid for. And $12 per hour at 40 hours a week is pretty good money with room and board paid for. [/QUOTE] Sums to $24,960/year. You think a single can live comfortably on **that** in the U.S.?! She’d be better off staying in Sonora or wherever. Furthermore, there’s no guarantee (stated) that it would include any health insurance or other benefits – or even that it would be a 40-hour-a-week job! ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/50 "2006-07-09T02:39:32Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Sums to $24,960/year. You think a single can live comfortably on **that** in the U.S.?! She’d be better off staying in Sonora or wherever. Furthermore, there’s no guarantee (stated) that it would include any health insurance or other benefits – or even that it would be a 40-hour-a-week job! [/QUOTE] It wasn’t a scam. The people had hired a friend of my daughter’s several tears ago. That is where they got our phone number. This was in the SAn Francisco area and the people are apparently very comfortable financially. My daughter gave it some thought. She was looking at it as more of an adventure than a job and she could have had some fun exploring the Bay area. But the woman reneged on the plane ticket so that was the end of that. The odd thing is, there are quite a number of wealthy Americans recruit middle class bilingual Mexican girls with college educations to work as nannies. They don’t seem to be all that worried about the legality or the ethical question. Some of these girls do it for exactly the reason my daughter contemplated, sort of a paid vacation. And these girls families are not poor even by American standards. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/51 "2006-07-09T14:42:36Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Sums to $24,960/year. You think a single can live comfortably on **that** in the U.S.?! She’d be better off staying in Sonora or wherever. Furthermore, there’s no guarantee (stated) that it would include any health insurance or other benefits – or even that it would be a 40-hour-a-week job! [/QUOTE] I guess that my ivory tower is actually made out of porcelain enamel. But yes, a single person can definitely live comfortably, especially with someone else paying for 3 hots and a cot, on $24,960. Sorry for the continued hijack. As for Calderón, is it certain that he’ll respect all parts of NAFTA? I always thought that one of the major factors of increased illegal US immigration from Mexico was that small Mexican farms just couldn’t compete with US grain exports to Mexico from major US corporations like ADM? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/52 "2006-07-09T14:50:28Z")
[QUOTE=Unregistered Bull] As for Calderón, is it certain that he’ll respect all parts of NAFTA? I always thought that one of the major factors of increased illegal US immigration from Mexico was that small Mexican farms just couldn’t compete with US grain exports to Mexico from major US corporations like ADM? [/QUOTE] But has Calderon ever suggested he has a problem with that? ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/53 "2006-07-09T14:56:11Z")
[QUOTE=Unregistered Bull] As for Calderón, is it certain that he’ll respect all parts of NAFTA? I always thought that one of the major factors of increased illegal US immigration from Mexico was that small Mexican farms just couldn’t compete with US grain exports to Mexico from major US corporations like ADM? [/QUOTE] For one thing, Calderón recieved 35% of the vote, as did AMLO. That certainly doesn’t give him a mandate. So he’ll have to deal with political pressure from all sides. I don’t really think anyone here is completely against NAFTA. Many, myself included, think there are certain parts that need to be reconsidered. The heavily subsidized agribusiness in the US needs to be addressed. Free trade should be fair trade. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/54 "2006-07-09T15:07:03Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] The heavily subsidized agribusiness in the US needs to be addressed. [/QUOTE] By Mexico subsidizing its own farmers, or demanding the U.S. stop subsidizing ours, or what? ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/55 "2006-07-09T15:12:58Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] By Mexico subsidizing its own farmers, or demanding the U.S. stop subsidizing ours, or what? [/QUOTE] Cut the subsidies in the States. Mexico and many other deveoping countries simply can’t afford to subsidize crops such as is done by the US government. the EU is equally guilty. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2006, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/56 "2006-07-09T18:08:41Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Sums to $24,960/year. You think a single can live comfortably on **that** in the U.S.?! [/QUOTE] With Room and Board paid for? Yes! Quite well. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2006, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/57 "2006-07-11T04:05:38Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] How about you clean your own house and take responsibility for your own mess? No pushing the poor over the border to leech money out of the U.S., no blaming “drug money” for your corrupt system, no more sucking off the generosity of Los Estados Unitos? [/QUOTE] You mean like this:[Apply here for US visa](http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/10/060711003438.h3rp48mw.html) ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/58 "2006-07-15T03:16:44Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] Balthisar, its’s obvious from this and other posts that while you have a good deal of knowledge of Mexico, it is mostly superficial and tinted by an American conciousness. The most glaring sign of this is refering to Lopez Obrador as “Obrador”. Your comment about a constitutional amendment regarding re-election is ridiculous on several fronts. [/QUOTE] “Obrador’s” not an oversight; it’s quicker than writing both the patronymical and that matronymical, and the fact that I only do it for him is a sign of my contempt – to a Mexican it may make me look ignorant, but I don’t care; US message board ;). My “knowledge” isn’t tainted by American conciousness; I’d be a liberal _perredista_ were that the case! Instead my views are reflections of (1) my family, all of whom are _panistas_, but also to a great deal of free thought weighed by Republican ideals and principals. Freedom, ya know? You think that the 2/3 of entire friggin country that voted against Obrador were influenced by the American point of view? And for the idea of re-elections being ridiculous, you’re right. I specifically said as a means of ridicule (same root word here): “had Obrador won, I bet we’d see a change to the constitution whereby re-elections for presidents are now okay.” That wasn’t meant as a truly serious assertation, and I am big enough to step forward and say that I apologize for the confusion. It was just another way to strike out at the idiot that he is. Surely the results of his little tantrums, digging at nothing, and being proven wrong at every step of the way has made you see that this bozo isn’t the “great man” you thought he was, right? I mean, he’s making a fool of himself! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/59 "2006-07-15T13:49:06Z")
[QUOTE=Balthisar] You think that the 2/3 of entire friggin country that voted against Obrador were influenced by the American point of view? [/quote] I dunno. What influenced the 2/3 who voted against Calderon? [/quote] [QUOTE=Balthisar] Surely the results of his little tantrums, digging at nothing, and being proven wrong at every step of the way has made you see that this bozo isn’t the “great man” you thought he was, right? I mean, he’s making a fool of himself! [/QUOTE] All I know is he’s doing what Kerry should have done after the 2004 election, but I’m fuzzy on the details. On what points has he been “proven wrong” so far? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/60 "2006-07-15T13:58:38Z")
There do, after all, appear to have been some [real irregularities:](http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060731/editors) > [@](#): > > Calderón’s so-called victory is shrouded in suspicion. On July 3 the Federal Electoral Institute (IFE) informed the world that with nearly all the votes counted in its preliminary result, Calderón was slightly ahead of Andrés Manuel López Obrador of the center-left Party of the Democratic Revolution (PRD). AMLO, as López Obrador is known, immediately insisted that the autonomous IFE (much praised by US media for its supposed professionalism in administering the election) had neglected to count 3 million votes. The institute acknowledged the error and ordered that those ballots be tallied. Two days later IFE announced that Calderón had won by 240,000 votes. Mexico is now enduring its own version of the Florida election debacle of 2000, and it amounts to a constitutional and political crisis. > > Was the process fair? AMLO insists that “irregularities” took place at 50,000 polling stations (of 130,000). The newspaper La Jornada featured on its cover a crumpled ballot rescued from a garbage bin in a working-class AMLO stronghold in Mexico City. On July 9 the PRD officially requested a complete recount at disputed polling stations, and it has launched a two-pronged strategy to achieve it. On the legal front PRD lawyers have delivered hundreds of pages of documentation concerning electoral chicanery to a special electoral tribunal; that tribunal, which has demonstrated independence in the past, has the power to order a partial or full recount, and it must certify the winner by September 6. On the political front the left has unleashed its forces on the streets. On July 8 several hundred thousand AMLO supporters converged on Mexico City’s central square for a raucous demonstration, and the PRD called another rally for July 16. Some US newspapers have implied that AMLO is a demagogue for sanctioning such tactics, but these critics fail to understand that he is under crushing pressure from his own rank and file. “If Andrés Manuel does not assume leadership,” one PRD leader told the Financial Times, “there will be chaos. The people are very angry.” Maybe it **is** the cleanest election in Mexican history, but that’s like, you know, “Disco’s greatest hits.” OTOH, I will admit some of Obrador’s accusations appear rather silly. Like [subliminal advertising.](http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-07-14-voa51.cfm) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069.md?page=4)