# Calderon wins in Mexico - a good result for the US? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 3, 2006, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069 "2006-07-03T17:43:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/61 "2006-07-15T17:07:32Z")
[QUOTE=Balthisar] “Obrador’s” not an oversight; it’s quicker than writing both the patronymical and that matronymical, and the fact that I only do it for him is a sign of my contempt – to a Mexican it may make me look ignorant, but I don’t care; US message board ;). [/QUOTE] Why contempt? Do you share the same contempt for Calderón for throwing public money at his wife’s family? And how much of that money came back to him in favor of campaign contributions? [QUOTE=Balthisar] My “knowledge” isn’t tainted by American conciousness; I’d be a liberal _perredista_ were that the case! Instead my views are reflections of (1) my family, all of whom are _panistas_, but also to a great deal of free thought weighed by Republican ideals and principals. Freedom, ya know? [/QUOTE] Not surprising that your in-laws are fervent Panistas being from Guanajuato. Does your knowledge of Mexican history mean that you are aware of the militancy of the derechistas that have always controlled or heavily influenced politics in that state? Have you ever heard of the “Organización Nacional del Yunque”? If you’re truly concerned with freedom and free thought do a little investigation of that group or similar organizations in Guanajuato. [QUOTE=Balthisar] You think that the 2/3 of entire friggin country that voted against Obrador were influenced by the American point of view? [/QUOTE] I’m not sure what your point is here. Because you see Mexico from an outsider’s point of view what does that have to do with the election? [QUOTE=Balthisar] And for the idea of re-elections being ridiculous, you’re right. I specifically said as a means of ridicule (same root word here): “had Obrador won, I bet we’d see a change to the constitution whereby re-elections for presidents are now okay.” That wasn’t meant as a truly serious assertation, and I am big enough to step forward and say that I apologize for the confusion. It was just another way to strike out at the idiot that he is. [/QUOTE] This seems like a tactic popularly used in US politics. Smear the opponent and later when called on it make a less than serious attempt at retraction after you seed the idea in the voters minds. If I hadn’t called you on it, readers on this MB (not that they care) would have never known the ridiculousness of your statement. [QUOTE=Balthisar] Surely the results of his little tantrums, digging at nothing, and being proven wrong at every step of the way has made you see that this bozo isn’t the “great man” you thought he was, right? I mean, he’s making a fool of himself! [/QUOTE] I have never claimed AMLO was a “great man”. Now you are trying to put words in my mouth. AMLO certainly has faults but IMO is a better option than Calderón. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/62 "2006-07-16T03:13:25Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] Have you ever heard of the “Organización Nacional del Yunque”? Not before, but . . . hmmm . . . based on [this,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organizaci%C3%B3n_Nacional_del_Yunque) it sounds like an upper-class Latin-Catholic version of the Klan – at the height of its power in the 1920s. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/63 "2006-07-16T03:14:55Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] This seems like a tactic popularly used in US politics. Smear the opponent and later when called on it make a less than serious attempt at retraction after you seed the idea in the voters minds. [/QUOTE] 😕 They don’t do that in Mexican politics? ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/64 "2006-07-16T04:15:38Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] [QUOTE=CBEscapee] Have you ever heard of the “Organización Nacional del Yunque”? Not before, but . . . hmmm . . . based on [this,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organizaci%C3%B3n_Nacional_del_Yunque) it sounds like an upper-class Latin-Catholic version of the Klan – at the height of its power in the 1920s. :eek: [/QUOTE] No, more like the remnant of the fascist _sinarquista_ movement organized along the lines and with the help of the Spanish Falange in the 1930’s. Post Mexican Revolution reactionaries. These aren’t some ignorant redneck racists but highly intelligent and successful people. Think Franco in Spain or Pinochet in Chile. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/65 "2006-07-16T04:23:39Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] No, more like the remnant of the fascist _sinarquista_ movement organized along the lines and with the help of the Spanish Falange in the 1930’s. Post Mexican Revolution reactionaries. These aren’t some ignorant redneck racists but highly intelligent and successful people. Think Franco in Spain or Pinochet in Chile. [/QUOTE] That’s even worse! :eek: :eek: :eek: (Because more dangerous.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/66 "2006-07-16T04:24:41Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] No, more like the remnant of the fascist _sinarquista_ movement organized along the lines and with the help of the Spanish Falange in the 1930’s. Post Mexican Revolution reactionaries. These aren’t some ignorant redneck racists but highly intelligent and successful people. Think Franco in Spain or Pinochet in Chile. [/QUOTE] That’s even worse! :eek: :eek: :eek: (Because smarter and richer and more dangerous.) ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/67 "2006-07-16T04:31:27Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] That’s even worse! :eek: :eek: :eek: (Because smarter and richer and more dangerous.) [/QUOTE] Did you lose the verb somewhere? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/68 "2006-07-16T04:38:41Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] Did you lose the verb somewhere? [/QUOTE] The verb would be “is,” represented by “'s.” In English, we use contractions, and we do not always write in complete sentences where the verb of one sentence is implied in the preceding sentence. Might not satisfy Strunk & White, but who gives a Stuart Little’s ass? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/69 "2006-07-16T04:52:03Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] and we do not always write in complete sentences where the verb of one sentence is implied in the preceding sentence. Might not satisfy Strunk & White, but who gives a Stuart Little’s ass? 🙂 [/QUOTE] Thanks for pointing that out. I had never heard that before in all the years of English language study. Something new each day. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/70 "2006-07-16T04:53:04Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Might not satisfy . . . [/QUOTE] Sometimes we omit pronouns, too! It’s all good, just so long as you don’t end up sounding like Charlie Chan! 😃 (Or, Tonto, Tarzan & Frankenstein.) ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/71 "2006-07-16T05:08:14Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Sometimes we omit pronouns, too! It’s all good, just so long as you don’t end up sounding like Charlie Chan! 😃 (Or, Tonto, Tarzan & Frankenstein.) [/QUOTE] I’m not so sure about that. There are plenty of tontos around here that speak English very well. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2006, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/72 "2006-07-16T05:12:23Z")
[QUOTE=CBEscapee] I’m not so sure about that. There are plenty of tontos around here that speak English very well. 😛 [/QUOTE] Hey, well, as the wise old Chilean proverb remarks, _“Mio tio es enfermo, pero la carreterra es verde!”_\* 😛😃😉😃🆒 \*“My uncle is sick, but the highway is green!” ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/73 "2006-07-18T16:43:39Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] There do, after all, appear to have been some [real irregularities:](http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060731/editors) Maybe it **is** the cleanest election in Mexican history, but that’s like, you know, “Disco’s greatest hits.” OTOH, I will admit some of Obrador’s accusations appear rather silly. Like [subliminal advertising.](http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-07-14-voa51.cfm) [/QUOTE] ummm… 1.- As far as I can tell, the 3 million “disappearing” votes were more of an oversight than anything else. Apparently there was an agreement among the parties (signed in February) which stated they wouldn’t post any suspect votes on the preliminary count. 2.- The accusations have veered all over the place. At first, López Obrador (AMLO) argued against the Preliminary count and the official Districtal Count, telling everyone the counting systems were corrupted (somehow). Just yesterday, however, his argument specifically eliminated those allegations and he’s now speaking about an “old-fashioned” fraud. 3.- One of the more frustrating episodes was the one where he showed a video which supposedly proved the stuffing of ballots. However, later it was shown that what happened at that polling place was rather the misplacement of some congress-related votes in the presidential ballot. The representatives present at the polling place agreed to have them transferred to its proper ballot. So far, so good. But when the press asked AMLO about the incident and mentioned his party’s representative agreeing with the procedure, he hinted at that girl’s probable corruption… I can agree with the idea that you have to recount every vote to insure that the winner has actually gotten most votes. Hey, errors happen every day and when you’re talking about a .5 percent difference, those errors just might swing the election. But there’s a difference between smearing EVERYONE, insisting on having the results (telepathically, perhaps?) when all official and extra-official result contradicts your story, inventing new corruption stories on the fly, hinting at economical and societal disruption if your “victory” isn’t accepted and asking for respect for the democratic process. ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/74 "2006-07-18T16:46:44Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Hey, well, as the wise old Chilean proverb remarks, _“Mio tio es enfermo, pero la carreterra es verde!”_\* 😛😃😉😃🆒 \*“My uncle is sick, but the highway is green!” [/QUOTE] Nitpick: “Mi tío está enfermo, pero la carretera es verde” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2006, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/75 "2006-07-18T23:23:09Z")
[Looks like things aren’t going to settle down any time soon.](http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003133835_mexvote18.html) ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/76 "2006-07-19T03:04:47Z")
I’m here to interject that the best way to get rid of corruption is what’s happening now: truly multi-party elections. IMO it wasn’t NAFTA that got Mexico’s economy to start moving faster, but the fact that, simultaneously with it, the PRI lost its monopoly on power. You no longer see what you saw at the end of the Salinas regime, the ruling family looting the country to such an extent that the entire nation suffers a financial crisis because of it. The reason is simple: if you have more than one party with a realistic shot at power, you get checks and balances. REAL ones, based in partisan politics, that work. I’m neutral as to whether it’s Calderon or Lopez: each would do some things that will be good for Mexico in the long run. Neither will be able to get away with anything remotely like what Salinas did in terms of corruption, and that’s the best thing about all this. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2006, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/77 "2006-07-19T12:04:13Z")
[QUOTE=pantom] The reason is simple: if you have more than one party with a realistic shot at power, you get checks and balances. REAL ones, based in partisan politics, that work. [/QUOTE] But to **really** make it work, you need more than two. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2006, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/78 "2006-07-21T02:07:50Z")
You’re probably right. Rock-paper-scissors is infinitely more complex, and interesting, than heads or tails. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2006, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/79 "2006-07-21T05:17:19Z")
[QUOTE=pantom] You’re probably right. Rock-paper-scissors is infinitely more complex, and interesting, than heads or tails. [/QUOTE] Of course, you have to be careful – there’s [more than one version.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecha-Streisand)😉 (Scroll down to “Trivia.”) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2006, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069/80 "2006-07-26T18:45:57Z")
[Here’s another article,](http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2747/) pointing out still more irregularities, but also blaming the closeness of the vote on Obrador’s arrogance, messianic style, and amateurish approach to campaigning. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calderon-wins-in-mexico-a-good-result-for-the-us/363069.md?page=5)