# California: 58 new measles cases in 2014 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 25, 2014, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949 "2014-04-25T12:52:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/1 "2014-04-25T12:52:32Z")
From the CDC report: > [@](#): > > Most of the 58 patients were either unvaccinated (25 [43%]) or had no vaccination documentation available (18 [31%]). Of the 25 patients who were known to be unvaccinated, 19 (76%) had philosophical objections to vaccination, three (12%) were too young (aged ≤12 months) for routine vaccination, and three (12%) were unvaccinated for unknown reasons. Eleven (19%) patients had documentation of 2 or more valid doses of measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine, including two children and nine adults. Three health-care personnel had documentation of serologic evidence of immunity before exposure, and one additional patient was found to have serologic evidence of immunity when tested as part of a contact investigation before symptom onset. Lesson: unvaccinated people give the disease a foothold, from which even vaccinated people are at some minor risk. I am surprised at the nearly 20% of cases found in vaccinated people, and would have guessed the number to be much lower, but this highlights the importance of not giving the disease an easy entry point via the large unvaccinated pool. I think it’s time to think about some sort of consequence for an unvaccinated person who can be shown to have passes a disease on. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/2 "2014-04-25T13:03:12Z")
Sort of like what happens if you crash into someone and it can be shown it happened because you didn’t wear your seat belt and lost control of the car? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/3 "2014-04-25T13:06:17Z")
Well, there’s the consequence of getting the disease… Link? How many of these were adults who actually made a decision, as opposed to kids who had no choices to make. Presumably your idea of “consequences” includes parents making the call about their kids, and that seems to complicate the legal picture, if you can believe _Law & Order_. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/4 "2014-04-25T13:16:20Z")
Even worse he last couple of years in South Wales in the UK: > **[2013 Swansea measles epidemic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Swansea_measles_epidemic)** > > The 2012–2013 Swansea measles epidemic began in November 2012 and was declared over on 3 July 2013. There were a total of 1,219 measles notifications (suspected cases) in Swansea, Neath Port Talbot, Bridgend, Carmarthenshire, Ceredigion, Pembrokeshire and Powys, with 1,455 measles notifications for the whole of Wales, 664 of which were in Swansea alone. A total of 88 people were hospitalised for measles infection during the epidemic. One death was reported: a 25-year-old man with giant cell So... People got scared, rates dropped to below 3/4 and herd immunity was lost Several babies were very ill. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/5 "2014-04-25T13:22:10Z")
Sadly, I can see those who fail to vaccinate try to turn such consequences on people who are visiting or emigrating to this nation and didn’t/couldn’t have the vaccination. And as is always the case, the kids are the ones getting the diseases and its the dipshitted parents making the decisions for their medical care. My thoughts are that any doctor who panders to anti-vaccinator paretns by signing their exemption cards should have their license revoked if any of those kids gets the disease. Then they should be taken home, sealed in it and injected with 100cc of bubonic plague. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/6 "2014-04-25T13:24:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think it’s time to think about some sort of consequence for an unvaccinated person who can be shown to have passes a disease on. This seems like an odd view. Is it influenced by tort or libertarian philosophy? I think vaccines should be mandatory, with consequences for disobedience. Bricker thinks any consequence _should only apply_ if the unvaccinated becomes a “successful” carrier. Is it clear why I find this thinking to be a peculiar consequence of some starting political position? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/7 "2014-04-25T13:47:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think it’s time to think about some sort of consequence for an unvaccinated person who can be shown to have passes a disease on. I reckon the people to blame are Andrew Wakefield (and to a lesser extent) Jenny McCarthy. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/8 "2014-04-25T13:48:17Z")
Prescriptions for antibiotics should include the cost of monitoring to make sure you took the full course. If a random blood/urine check come back negative for the antibiotic, you get fined, go to jail, and do not collect $200. There would be a huge hue, cry, and expense at first, but as overall transmission rates dropped the cost savings in lost productivity, fewer transmissions and happier bunnies would be much higher. Anyone else expecting an incoming Brickroll? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/9 "2014-04-25T14:13:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I am surprised at the nearly 20% of cases found in vaccinated people, and would have guessed the number to be much lower, but this highlights the importance of not giving the disease an easy entry point via the large unvaccinated pool These figures are pretty much in line with what you’d expect, seeing that 1) no vaccine is 100% effective, resulting in a minority of vaccinated persons being susceptible to the disease, and 2) the fact that the vaccinated population is so very much larger than the unvaccinated one. In some disease outbreaks, vaccinated victims outnumber unvaccinated ones simply because of this huge disproportion between vaccinated and unvaccinated. For example: say you have a group of 1000 children, 90% of whom are vaccinated against highly contagious measles. If half of the unvaccinated cohort gets measles, that’s 50 kids with the disease. If just 10% of the vaccinated group gets measles (due to immune problems or other factors), that’s still 100 sick vacicnated kids - twice as many as the unvaccinated group (a situation antivaxers exploit to claim that vaccines don’t work). As to legal liabilitiy, I would follow with interest a lawsuit filed by parents of a child damaged by a vaccine-preventable disease (where the outbreak was started by nonvaccinated kid(s)). What I’d really enjoy seeing is antivax pediatricians called to account for their activities and pronouncements (currently in California there are two such docs busy [attempting to](http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2014/04/dr-jays-magical-math.html) [downplay the significance](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/03/28/after-all-this-time-dr-bob-sears-finally-tips-his-hand-on-vaccines-part-v/) of the outbreak, one of whom cared for the unvaccinated child who started an earlier measles outbreak, spreading it through the waiting room of another physician). Rather than encouraging such lawsuits, my priority would be eliminating access to public schools and day care centers for kids left unvaccinated for “philosophical” or pseudoreligious reasons. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/10 "2014-04-25T14:22:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > From the CDC report: > > Lesson: unvaccinated people give the disease a foothold, from which even vaccinated people are at some minor risk. > > I am surprised at the nearly 20% of cases found in vaccinated people, and would have guessed the number to be much lower, but this highlights the importance of not giving the disease an easy entry point via the large unvaccinated pool. > > I think it’s time to think about some sort of consequence for an unvaccinated person who can be shown to have passes a disease on. What sort of consequence do you propose? I personally do not think someone should be allowed to refuse an MMR vaccine unless they have proven medical indications that would make it inadvisable. But I am not sure if that’s legal. I think at the very least someone from the medical profession should not be allowed to opt out unless there are underlying medical issues. Parents who refuse vaccination for their children should be told to homeschool them. ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/11 "2014-04-25T15:06:23Z")
I agree. I think that it is absolutely insane that people can opt out of vaccinating their kids without something from a licensed physician indicating that they shouldn’t be immunized. I personally don’t want my kids attending daycare or school with a bunch of potential carriers of diseases that we should have been able to eradicate but for a bunch of whackjobs. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/12 "2014-04-25T15:16:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think it’s time to think about some sort of consequence for an unvaccinated person who can be shown to have passes a disease on. I’m not a immunologist or policy planner, but that doesn’t sound particularly practical. Wouldn’t that take a lot of resources and manpower? Is that even something that can be done reliably? Seems like it’d just be easier to uh, “encourage” everyone to get vaccinated. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/13 "2014-04-25T15:22:52Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > This seems like an odd view. Is it influenced by tort or libertarian philosophy? > > I think vaccines should be mandatory, with consequences for disobedience. Bricker thinks any consequence _should only apply_ if the unvaccinated becomes a “successful” carrier. Is it clear why I find this thinking to be a peculiar consequence of some starting political position? I think I was starting from a analogy to tort liability – not sure that tort law is a political position. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/14 "2014-04-25T15:23:54Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Anyone else expecting an incoming Brickroll? I have no idea what this means. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/15 "2014-04-25T15:28:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think I was starting from a analogy to tort liability – not sure that tort law is a political position. I see it as punishment instead of prevention. I think a parent would rather not have her/his child infected in the first place rather then get some sort of cash payout after the fact. Money cannot bring back a loved one from the grave. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/16 "2014-04-25T15:29:44Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I’m not a immunologist or policy planner, but that doesn’t sound particularly practical. Wouldn’t that take a lot of resources and manpower? Is that even something that can be done reliably? Seems like it’d just be easier to uh, “encourage” everyone to get vaccinated. It might not be easier, since it would require legislation in fifty states. Federal legislation to require it seems foreclosed by Jacobson v. Massachusetts. Unless you mean encourage some other way than “mandate.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/17 "2014-04-25T15:33:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I see it as punishment instead of prevention. I think a parent would rather not have her/his child infected in the first place rather then get some sort of cash payout after the fact. Money cannot bring back a loved one from the grave. Right, of course…but a huge financial loss potential might prompt a Luddite to vaccinate. As you say, the idea is to incentivize the vaccination rather than compensate the family. (And if we allowed suits for infection, that doesn’t mean only in cases where the infected person dies… I am picturing a statutory liability with an absolute defense of “here’s my proof of vaccination.”) ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/18 "2014-04-25T15:40:06Z")
Measles is actually one of the world’s most contagious diseases. One of the problems with measles is that young children often cannot get vaccinated against measles. The vaccine is just not very effective in this population. Should parents be allowed to sue if it can be proven that their child got measles that can be traced to someone who deliberately refused to vaccinate? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/19 "2014-04-25T16:05:18Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Measles is actually one of the world’s most contagious diseases. One of the problems with measles is that young children often cannot get vaccinated against measles. The vaccine is just not very effective in this population. Should parents be allowed to sue if it can be proven that their child got measles that can be traced to someone who deliberately refused to vaccinate? Yes. I’m picturing it can be handled like a three-car pileup: you end up effectively suing the guy who started the collision, not the guy that hit you. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/20 "2014-04-25T16:39:42Z")
It is interesting what will change someone’s mind on this issue. The Amish unfortunately sometimes refuse vaccination. However, after a measles outbreak in Ohio, they are currently flocking to a clinic offering the shot: > [@](#): > > [Amish Seek Measles Shots After Ohio Outbreak Sickens 15](http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/amish-seek-measles-shots-after-ohio-outbreak-sickens-15-n89221) > > Members of an Ohio Amish community normally reluctant to vaccinate their children flocked to a makeshift clinic for measles shots this week after an outbreak that may have sickened at least 15 people. > > More than 135 people crowded into a local woodworking business Thursday where nurses used up every available dose of vaccine — and then ordered 300 doses more, said Pam Palm, a spokeswoman for the Knox County, Ohio, Health Department. Unfortunately, I think this exactly what it may take: needless outbreaks of vaccine-preventable diseases. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949.md?page=2)