# California: 58 new measles cases in 2014 **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 25, 2014, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949 "2014-04-25T12:52:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/41 "2014-04-25T21:10:45Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Indeed. Risk assessment is one of the things we do worst in all the world. But assessing risk of measles contraction is simply another form of something we’re bad at. It just gets lost in all the ‘anti-vaxxer’ nonsense. I think its more a collective action problem then a risk assessment problem. Anti-vaxxers are correct that their chance of actually getting measles is miniscule, even without vaccination. The problem is that the more people think that way, the less true it become. Current vaccination rates are in excess of 90%, which is enough to maintain herd immunity and prevent an epidemic (note the cases in the CDC report only involved a few individuals and then petered out, vaccination did in fact protect the community, even if it didn’t protect a few individuals). And despite a lot of discussion on the internet, there isn’t much indication that the anti-vaxxers are causing a measurable drop in vaccination rates. > [@](#): > > My issue with Bricker’s proposition is that I don’t think people will respond properly to anything other than compulsory vaccinations with immediate consequence. How to acheive that I leave for those with more interest. I think the current system of making vaccines a requirement to attend public institutions, and providing programs that ensure doctors encourage vaccination and pays for vaccinations for those that can’t afford them, has worked pretty well, and treads the line between public safety and personal liberty pretty well. As I said, I’d tighten personal exemptions to make them harder to get, and consider adding passports to the list of things you need to show immunization records for, but I think the basic framework has been very successful. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/42 "2014-04-26T01:32:21Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > It’s tiring when right-wingers finesse questions with “Oh no! Useful electoral reform would violate the First Amendment written by the Finger of God atop Mount Sinai.” Or, “Oh no; that’s prohibited by Jacobson vs Somebody-or-Other.” Since you are being clear, let me be clear: None of your posts have actually addressed the topic of this thread in any serious way. They have all been implicit or explicit attacks on Bricker’s purported politics with a side portion of “bash the Right.” Knock it off. You are free to open a thread in which you challenge whether people whom you perceive as having a particular political view are consistent in their applications of that view. You are not free to hijack this thread with attacks on what you perceive to be the political philosophy of another poster. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/43 "2014-04-26T13:14:26Z")
And…a new outbreak of measles confirmed in my backyard (central Ohio): \*"Ohio health officials and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have confirmed a measles outbreak in the Knox County area of Ohio. To date, the Ohio Department of Health says there are 16 confirmed cases of measles. Health officials say the initial cases were unvaccinated travelers who returned to Ohio from the Philippines."\* [http://www.wkyc.com/story/news/local/ohio/2014/04/24/ohio-measles-cases/8092445/](http://www.wkyc.com/story/news/local/ohio/2014/04/24/ohio-measles-cases/8092445/) As it is for most places around the world, including vaccine-preventable disease hot spots, no vaccinations are required for travel from the U.S. to the Philippines. Bring back a little something extra for the family (and the community)! ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2014, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/44 "2014-04-26T13:51:13Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > [QUOTE=Bricker] > > I think I was starting from a analogy to tort liability – not sure that tort law is a political position. Is drunk driving NOT a crime unless the driver causes injury? Is tax evasion NOT a crime unless prosecutor proves the government would have spent the money “usefully”? Is attempted murder NOT a crime unless it succeeds? The semantic question of whether such a peculiar libertarian perspective fits in the scope of “political position” is not likely to be fruitful. [/QUOTE] **Bricker** has stated that he’s thinking of tort liability as a model, and you’re criticising his position with examples drawn from the criminal law, where a crime can be committed without physical harm to anyone. I don’t see your point, since it’s well-established that in tort law, there must be actual injury to the plaintiff for the plaintiff to succeed. That doesn’t seem like a political position; we don’t normally think of tort law as being a libertarian policy. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2014, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/45 "2014-04-27T20:50:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I am surprised at the nearly 20% of cases found in vaccinated people, and would have guessed the number to be much lower, but this highlights the importance of not giving the disease an easy entry point via the large unvaccinated pool. You need to think about this number in the right way. The uptake rate for MMR is very high (around 95%). So, in spite of the fact that 95% of the population is vaccinated, only 20% of the people who got measles were vaccinated, while even though only 5% of the population is unvaccinated, 80% of the people who got measles were unvaccinated. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/47 "2014-04-28T06:49:40Z")
I have told the mods of your recommendation of homework -desk .com and I’m sure they will take a keen interest in your mention of it. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/48 "2014-04-28T13:12:55Z")
Bricker, not being a lawyer myself… I was once “voir dire’d” to sit on a jury (I wasn’t selected) for a case where a woman was suing a man for giving her herpes. If she could bring that suit, why couldn’t I sue someone for having their unvaccinated child give mine measles, assuming the measles caused harm (I wouldn’t think you could sue because you felt miserable and rashy for two weeks, but ending up deaf is a different thing). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/49 "2014-04-28T15:05:41Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Bricker, not being a lawyer myself… > > I was once “voir dire’d” to sit on a jury (I wasn’t selected) for a case where a woman was suing a man for giving her herpes. If she could bring that suit, why couldn’t I sue someone for having their unvaccinated child give mine measles, assuming the measles caused harm (I wouldn’t think you could sue because you felt miserable and rashy for two weeks, but ending up deaf is a different thing). Civil law is not my strongest area of expertise (my strongest area of expertise is, of course, Buffy the Vampire Slayer trivia) but two cases don’t have all that much in common. They are both infectious diseases, to be sure, but herpes does not transmit as easily as measles. I’d expect that the woman was suing the man for failing to disclose his herpes status before having sex with her. There are state laws now that mandate similar disclosures, creating a statutory duty to disclose and a cause of action for the lack of disclosure. Here, I’m proposing the creation of different statutes to create a duty of care, or liability, for infecting anyone, period, if and only if you’re unvaccinated. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949/50 "2014-04-28T20:20:54Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Quite a bit snipped. > > While no one seems to take offense, and without getting too heavy-handed, this sidebar is really something I’d prefer not occur in Great Debates. It adds nothing to the discussion and redirects it towards a particular poster. > > No warning issued, of course. But please refrain in the future. Kudos for doing this without getting heavy handed or needlessly editorializing. I appreciate that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-58-new-measles-cases-in-2014/686949.md?page=2)