# California gives up High Speed Rail project, why is the US a failure and laughing stock? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 14, 2019, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549 "2019-02-14T19:41:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2019, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/21 "2019-02-14T20:46:20Z")
High Speed Rail in the US is a stupid idea from the get-go. We are too far apart and nobody wants to take 4 hours to get someplace that you can fly in 1. At the same price, I might add. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2019, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/22 "2019-02-14T20:48:48Z")
How cheap is HSR in Japan? I agree a train trip has to be much cheaper than Air travel in order to have any chance of succeeding. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2019, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/23 "2019-02-14T20:53:08Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > High Speed Rail in the US is a stupid idea from the get-go. We are too far apart and nobody wants to take 4 hours to get someplace that you can fly in 1. At the same price, I might add. Depends on if it will need the same kind of security as airports, and how much luggage you can bring, and the comfortability and amenties offered on the actual trip, and the individual person’s proximity to all four terminals (since it can take a half hour or more just to get to a terminal within a metro area.) ETA: I’d still rather _drive_ the vast majority of places that are within 4 hours since I still do not like having to depend on someone else’s timetable, but I’m sure as heck not going to fly anywhere closer than 1000 or so miles. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2019, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/24 "2019-02-14T20:57:00Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > How cheap is HSR in Japan? > > I agree a train trip has to be much cheaper than Air travel in order to have any chance of succeeding. About the same as air travel. But it is far more reliable, it’s far more comfortable, you don’t have to book tickets in advance, it’s far more frequent (Nozomi super-express leaves every 10 minutes from 6am to 9:30pm), you don’t have to go through security, you don’t have to arrive at the station an hour before departure, and it takes you right to the middle of downtown of the destination city. High speed rail is not the low-cost option. It’s the comfortable and convenient option. If you are on a tight budget, you take the overnight bus. ---
**Author:** ![Alpha\_Twit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alpha_twit/32/265_2.png) [@Alpha\_Twit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alpha_Twit)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2019, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/25 "2019-02-14T20:57:23Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I’m sure as heck not going to fly anywhere closer than 1000 or so miles. I don’t know about 1,000 miles but in general, I completely agree. Give me a choice between an 8 or 10 hour drive or a ninety minute fight, I’ll drive every time. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2019, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/26 "2019-02-14T20:58:12Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’m sure glad there aren’t any earthquakes in Japan. > Most of the California line was to go inland away from the faults. Since the major cities are on fault lines, kind of hard to avoid them entirely. Is the added expense of making high-speed rail less susceptible to earthquake damage the reason that the governor abandoned the project? _California Governor Gavin Newsom announced Tuesday in his “State of the State” address at the California State Capitol in Sacramento that he would abandon the state’s high-speed rail system because it was too expensive_. > **[California Governor Gavin Newsom Cancels High-speed Rail: 'Would Cost Too...](https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/02/12/california-governor-gavin-newsom-cancels-high-speed-rail-would-cost-too-much-and-take-too-long/)** > > California Governor Gavin Newsom announced he would abandon the state's high-speed rail system because it was too expensive. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2019, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/27 "2019-02-14T21:01:38Z")
Frankly, I wonder about the chances of \*any \*project of this scope getting completed in today’s political/social climate. ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2019, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/28 "2019-02-14T21:05:50Z")
The public is certainly not clamoring for it. You can fly from SF to LA for about 60 bucks. Who needs a train? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/29 "2019-02-14T21:08:13Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Depends on if it will need the same kind of security as airports, and how much luggage you can bring, and the comfortability and amenties offered on the actual trip, and the individual person’s proximity to all four terminals (since it can take a half hour or more just to get to a terminal within a metro area.) Isn’t airport security in place because of flight between countries? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2019, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/30 "2019-02-14T21:12:45Z")
I would like to see – perhaps graphically – a comparison between Japan’s rail lines and the areas served vs. central California with a proposed rail. It’s all about population density. We know that in very dense areas, rail (above or below ground) works pretty well. We also know that across, say, Kansas or Montana, it makes no rational sense at all, cost-wise. So is California dense enough to support this at a cost comparable to Japan? I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2019, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/31 "2019-02-14T21:13:54Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > ETA: I’d still rather _drive_ the vast majority of places that are within 4 hours since I still do not like having to depend on someone else’s timetable… That’s the advantage of high-speed rail. Once the infrastructure is in place, the marginal cost of each train is low, so they can run trains frequently. High-speed trains leave Tokyo every 5 minutes or so bound for Osaka & beyond, and half of them are the fastest kind. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2019, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/32 "2019-02-14T21:31:35Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I would like to see – perhaps graphically – a comparison between Japan’s rail lines and the areas served vs. central California with a proposed rail. It’s all about population density. We know that in very dense areas, rail (above or below ground) works pretty well. We also know that across, say, Kansas or Montana, it makes no rational sense at all, cost-wise. > > So is California dense enough to support this at a cost comparable to Japan? I doubt it. I don’t have anything graphical, but the newest high-speed rail completed in Japan is the [Hokkaido](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hokkaido_Shinkansen) line. It basically links Tokyo area to the Tohoku and Hokkaido area. The whole of Hokkaido has a population of 5.7 million, and Tohoku region population is 9 million. Distance is about 700 miles. San Francisco metro area population is about 8.8 million, and Sacramento area is 2.5 million. Distance is around 400 miles. So as a function of population / distance, it’s in the same ballpark. Of course if you compare the other end of each line, LA metro area is only 13.3 million while the greater Tokyo metro area is more like 38 million. But I’d argue the population of the other end is more indicative of how much the rail line gets used. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2019, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/33 "2019-02-14T21:38:59Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I agree, California wasn’t the best choice to attempt the first high speed rail in the US. They should have considered earthquakes before attempting the project and wasting money. It wasnt earthquakes. It was NIMBY. Look, when Japan wants to build a high speed rail, they build it. They pay anyone a fair price then move on. In CA, every county, City and property owner lined up to sue. The line from SJ to SF was supposed to be the best starter line, but many cities along the route sued and screamed. Property owners too. In addition, America is really spread out compared to Japan. HS rail makes more sense there. The big Shinkansen is Tokyo to Osaka, a distance of 300miles/500Km. LA To SF, just in CA, not crossing any state lines is over 400 miles. And crosses many County and cities. However, we already have two nice freeways connecting the two. So NIMBY is the big reason, but distance is another. It isnt the tech. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2019, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/34 "2019-02-14T21:40:14Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The US is particularly ill suited for High Speed Rail in that it is a big country with long distances between metro areas. The exception is the Northeast which is too built up for new HSR lines. The US uses rail for freight and has the best freight rail system in the world. Luckily, the airliner has been invented rendering HSR pointless for passengers. > > The larger reasons that the US can no longer build massive infrastructure projects are federalism and environmentalism. > Federalism means that any project will have to go through multiple layers of approval and people at all of the levels will cause delays and have their hand out. > Environmentalism because every project needs to do an environmental impact statement. … Well said! ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/35 "2019-02-14T21:41:44Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > > [@Ludovic](#): > > > > Depends on if it will need the same kind of security as airports, and how much luggage you can bring, and the comfortability and amenties offered on the actual trip, and the individual person’s proximity to all four terminals (since it can take a half hour or more just to get to a terminal within a metro area.) > > Isn’t airport security in place because of flight between countries? In my experience, there’s no difference between domestic and international flights in terms of the TSA security checkpoint hassle. Both suck equally. (On the bright side, I’m in the process of getting approved for Global Entry, which includes TSA PreCheck.) ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2019, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/36 "2019-02-14T21:47:58Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > High Speed Rail in the US is a stupid idea from the get-go. We are too far apart and nobody wants to take 4 hours to get someplace that you can fly in 1. At the same price, I might add. Tokyo to Osaka is 320 miles. Tokyo to Hakata (high speed rail line opened in 1972) is 660 miles. LA to San Francisco is 380 miles. San Diego to San Francisco is 500 miles. And you can’t fly anywhere in 1 hour. First you have to get to the airport (which is usually not in city center), and get there at least an hour before departure. Also, you can’t just show up at the airport and be on a flight immediately, which you can with a train. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2019, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/37 "2019-02-14T21:52:20Z")
My main issue is that the capital projects that we do manage to proceed on are just kind of… shitty. Here in DC, there was a long-awaited extension of our subway to Dulles International Airport, which is basically halfway between DC and West Virginia. (Exaggeration of course.) So it takes 20 years to get this project moving, and when it finally opens in relateively near future, it will take maybe an hour with transfer time to get from downtown DC to the airport, because there’s like 800 stops. Meanwhile, go to most European cities with a distant airport, and you have some kind of express train that makes similar trip in like 20 minutes. So we here in the US spend all this time and effort, and end up with a kind of crappy service that nobody will want to use. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2019, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/38 "2019-02-14T21:58:16Z")
FWIW, there’s a private high speed rail line between Houston and Dallas (~300 miles) slated to begin construction later this year, or maybe next year. The main impediment is the dumb-asses out in the boonies who are fighting this thing tooth and nail. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2019, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/39 "2019-02-14T22:04:02Z")
Aside from the practical objections, I can’t shake the feeling that trains are transportation for commies. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2019, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/40 "2019-02-14T22:09:37Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Also, you can’t just show up at the airport and be on a flight immediately, which you can with a train. I just checked the Amtrak schedule and if I wanted to take a train to Los Angeles and had a magic machine that would make me instantly materialize at the train station, I would still have to wait around 21 hours. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549.md?page=3)