# California gives up High Speed Rail project, why is the US a failure and laughing stock? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 14, 2019, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549 "2019-02-14T19:41:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2019, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/121 "2019-02-17T19:54:27Z")
India’s new high speed rail broke down on its first trip. It’s complicated technology and problems are to be expected. [https://www.google.com/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/10819652](https://www.google.com/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/10819652) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2019, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/122 "2019-02-17T22:38:32Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > India’s new high speed rail broke down on its first trip. It’s complicated technology and problems are to be expected. > > [India's first high speed train breaks down on inaugural trip - ABC News](https://www.google.com/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/10819652) It’s their money but I’d want reliable electricity before I worried about HSR. Hope it works out for them. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2019, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/123 "2019-02-18T00:19:16Z")
To what extent does the very existence of automobiles make rail a less competitive option in the US than in countries with fewer cars/highways and much higher petrol prices? Viewed that way, High-Speed Rail in other countries would presumably have more of a captive market. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2019, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/124 "2019-02-18T00:24:43Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > India’s new high speed rail broke down on its first trip. It’s complicated technology and problems are to be expected. > > [India's first high speed train breaks down on inaugural trip - ABC News](https://www.google.com/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/10819652) When I think of “train” and “India,” unfortunately, this is the kind of image that comes to mind: [https://www.eurasianbusinessbriefing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Indian-train5.jpg](https://www.eurasianbusinessbriefing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Indian-train5.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2019, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/125 "2019-02-18T00:52:40Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > When I think of “train” and “India,” unfortunately, this is the kind of image that comes to mind: [https://www.eurasianbusinessbriefing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Indian-train5.jpg](https://www.eurasianbusinessbriefing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Indian-train5.jpg) “Stop, this image was hotlinked!”. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2019, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/126 "2019-02-18T00:57:00Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > When I think of “train” and “India,” unfortunately, this is the kind of image that comes to mind: [https://www.eurasianbusinessbriefing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Indian-train5.jpg](https://www.eurasianbusinessbriefing.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Indian-train5.jpg) Can’t see the image, but I’ve been on Indian trains, including over night trains. They’re slow and decrepit, but they’re better than the roads, and go places that airplanes don’t. I’ve been on Chinese HSR extensively (I lived there for five years). They’re nice, but they serve population centers that are not at all like we have in the USA. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2019, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/127 "2019-02-18T02:46:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > “Stop, this image was hotlinked!”. My apologies. It was a picture of a passenger train in India, with hundreds of passengers on top of the train, and hanging off of the sides. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2019, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/128 "2019-02-18T03:06:15Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > While we are just quibbling I will defend the position that it is the CA taxpayer interest to address the issues of traffic congestion, pollution (and both its direct health and climate impacts), and safety. These are significant and growing issues within the state. [Vehicle miles traveled (VMT) in CA](https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/pressroom/fhwa1704.cfm) are increasing. > [Los Angeles is the world’s most traffic-clogged city.](https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-traffic-los-angeles-20170220-story.html)That is not just lost time for economic productivity and quality of life, and of health and climate change impact, it becomes a rate-limiting step for regional economic growth. Avoiding the commute raises housing prices and makes the region less attractive to those of modest means. > > Affordable, convenient, comfortable, and reliable, public transportation within regions is very likely a cost-effective public investment. Continued growth will very likely demand more people traveling (if not more miles per person) and handing that volume of people efficiently is not likely possible without it. Given the share of the nation’s VMT that are traveled there some Federal matching seems appropriate as well. > > Agreed that there is nothing per se wrong with technology from the last century. The right tool for the job is what matters. The right tool, the smartest one to use, is not necessarily the most expensive or sexiest one. But you _might_ need to create one with the job in mind. The $77B HSR was to get LA area legislators from Sacramento to LA. It does not address my commute, nor anyone’s. And $77 billion is far too much. It is NOT ‘public transportation within (a) regions’. Caltrans can’t be trusted to build a bridge without blowing up the budget by 2,500%. I sure don’t trust them with a new rail line. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2019, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/129 "2019-02-18T05:16:23Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > My apologies. It was a picture of a passenger train in India, with hundreds of passengers on top of the train, and hanging off of the sides. Let’s see if this, different but similar, image works: [![](http://www.iwishbucketlist.com/images/wish/i4_41_india_train_sm.jpg) ](http://www.iwishbucketlist.com/images/wish/i4_41_india_train_sm.jpg) At any rate, the point was that, even if that’s not a fair stereotype of trains in India, it’s the sort of image that gets shown fairly commonly here in the West. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2019, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/130 "2019-02-18T09:33:25Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > China could have a lot of things. Freedom is not one of them. It’s progress is at the expense of cheap labor and the environment. None of which is relevant to this thread of HSR in the US. Might I suggest a trip to Tiananmen Square to contemplate your response in a new thread of your creation. So what about all the other countries with HSR? Excuses like labor being cheaper in China don’t apply, but I’m sure you’ll think of something. As for the tiananmen thing, yeah that’s something horrific in China’s history, if I point out something terrible in the US history, do I win? Or do we stick to the actual topic? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/131 "2019-02-19T00:29:42Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > So what about all the other countries with HSR? > Excuses like labor being cheaper in China don’t apply, but I’m sure you’ll think of something. Yes, the Tiananmen Square reference clearly sailed over your head. We don’t have HSR because we can voice our opinion of it without 10,000 people getting slaughtered. There is no public support for HSR in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/132 "2019-02-19T00:45:59Z")
Certainly in an authoritarian society like China, there’s no problem if a proposed route for HSR requires the bulldozing of your family home. Meanwhile, in the US, some landowners in Texas are already filing suits to prevent the government from taking their land to build Trump’s border wall. ---
**Author:** ![JpnDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/838e76/32.png) [@JpnDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JpnDude)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/133 "2019-02-19T02:36:41Z")
This thread reminds me of this classic [NOVA program](https://youtu.be/qN5QqtlnMYQ?t=544) (YouTube) from 1984. We were already far behind, even then. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/134 "2019-02-19T06:11:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, the Tiananmen Square reference clearly sailed over your head. We don’t have HSR because we can voice our opinion of it without 10,000 people getting slaughtered. > > There is no public support for HSR in the US. There is a great deal of public support for HSR in China, so, by your own logic, Tienanmen square has fuck all to do with the topic at hand. ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/135 "2019-02-19T14:01:19Z")
I see all those Europeans flocking to the airports and abandoning “ancient technology” inter-city rail systems. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/136 "2019-02-19T15:49:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, the Tiananmen Square reference clearly sailed over your head. We don’t have HSR because we can voice our opinion of it without 10,000 people getting slaughtered. > > There is no public support for HSR in the US. There is good [public support in California](https://sf.curbed.com/2018/3/30/17180506/high-speed-rail-california-poll-train-project-cost-voters). ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/137 "2019-02-19T16:01:10Z")
I’ve often thought the Midwest using Chicago as a hub was a no-brainer for HSR. Devise whatever “star” you wish w/ Chicago at the center, and points at Minneapolis, Detroit, Indianapolis, St Louis, Cincinnati. All of them approx. 1 hr flight (but much longer, given time to get to/from airports, security waits, etc.) Have en-route stops to service Madison and other smaller markets. Train stations on either end in the middle of the city, as opposed to remote airports. And figure out bus or spurline hookups w/ O’Hare. Basically eliminate the need for many regional “connector” flights. Meanwhile, they are touting some impending multibillion rebuild of the O’Hare terminal. One problem w/ HSR is the primacy given freight over commuter. A constant source of friction w/ local commuter rail in Chicago. ---
**Author:** ![tonyfop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@tonyfop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tonyfop)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/138 "2019-02-19T16:21:38Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > One problem w/ HSR is the primacy given freight over commuter. A constant source of friction w/ local commuter rail in Chicago. I never realized the primacy given to freight over any passenger train until I took an AMTRAK train from NYC to North Carolina last year. A big part of the problem with long distance train travel is that AMTRAK is given lower priority than any freight train. We were stuck for an hour and a half somewhere in Virginia while we waited for a freight train to clear the tracks. The schedule was blown to hell. I don’t want to ride any form of transportation where the schedule is completely fluid and there is no way of telling when a train will actually leave or arrive. We left NYC on time, got to Salisbury, NC 2 hrs late. The return trip (a train originating in New Orleans) was 2 hrs late getting to Salisbury, and 3.5 hrs late getting back to NYC. We need someone to make the trains run on time! (Only half kidding) ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/139 "2019-02-19T16:36:36Z")
I assume that if California had pursued HSR, it would have been on dedicated lines, so there would have been no conflict with freight traffic. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/140 "2019-02-19T16:39:09Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I’ve often thought the Midwest using Chicago as a hub was a no-brainer for HSR. Devise whatever “star” you wish w/ Chicago at the center, and points at Minneapolis, Detroit, Indianapolis, St Louis, Cincinnati. All of them approx. 1 hr flight (but much longer, given time to get to/from airports, security waits, etc.) Have en-route stops to service Madison and other smaller markets. Train stations on either end in the middle of the city, as opposed to remote airports. And figure out bus or spurline hookups w/ O’Hare. Basically eliminate the need for many regional “connector” flights. > > Meanwhile, they are touting some impending multibillion rebuild of the O’Hare terminal. > > One problem w/ HSR is the primacy given freight over commuter. A constant source of friction w/ local commuter rail in Chicago. 1. En route stops defeat the entire purpose of HSR. 2. HSR shoudn’t have any freight/commuter conflicts, since it should be dedicated track and solely passenger. 3. We _used_ to be able to take a [helicopter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Airways#/media/File:6308-340DisneyLandChopper-R.jpg) from San Bernardino to LAX, avoiding all traffic. It’s time to bring that form of commuting back! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549.md?page=8)