# California gives up High Speed Rail project, why is the US a failure and laughing stock? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 14, 2019, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549 "2019-02-14T19:41:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/141 "2019-02-19T16:51:12Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Certainly in an authoritarian society like China, there’s no problem if a proposed route for HSR requires the bulldozing of your family home. Meanwhile, in the US, some landowners in Texas are already filing suits to prevent the government from taking their land to build Trump’s border wall. Oh, they’re filing suits to stop the building of the high speed railway between Houston and Dallas too. Most of the concerns seem to boil down to the facts that: [ul] [li]They don’t like the idea of a train zooming through their land. There’s a bunch of vague and nebulous glurge about country ways of life, etc…[/li][li]The rail scheme will cause them some degree of difficulty in farming- moving stock or irrigation or whatever.[/li][li]They’re just angry rural types who don’t like the big city. [/li][li]Dumb-ass Trumpery about how it’s a Japanese owned company, etc… (yes, there’s some Japanese investment, and the trains will be based on the Shinkasen trains).[/li][/ul] So far, the TCR people have managed to squash all this nonsense, and I suspect the rustic types are getting desperate- some Leon County (a BFE county about 2/3 of the way to Dallas from Houston) judge has ruled that TCR isn’t actually a railway, as it doesn’t have any actual track (yet), and as such, can’t take advantage of a lot of the Texas provisions for railways w.r.t. eminent domain, surveying, etc… This despite some Houston court ruling that they are indeed a railway, etc… To me this makes no sense and is a catch-22 - if you’re not a railway until you actually lay track, how do you get the power to lay track in the first place. Oh, and FYI, the Dallas-Houston HSR is supposed to be passenger-only, and have one stop in Grimes County. I suspect that’s so they can put a station there and have options to go westward from there to Austin/San Antonio. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/142 "2019-02-19T17:43:42Z")
HSR should ideally be [underground running through evacuated tunnels in excess of 1000 mph](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew0eEl6N-30). THEN you can really make some headway. NYC to London, LA to NYC in 2 hours or something similar. Of course, when that show was created, no one ever addressed what would happen if the train broke down halfway between NY and London. Or if some terrorist set off a bomb halfway. Still, the risks are analogous to what we have now. Is it better or worse to dive into the ocean at 600 mph from 35000 feet, or die of suffocation hundreds of feet below the ocean floor? ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/143 "2019-02-19T17:56:00Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > 1. En route stops defeat the entire purpose of HSR. You may well know better than I, but every potential map I’ve seen has shown a line from Chicago to Cincy, by way of Indy. Or Chicago to Minneapolis, via Milwaukee and Madison. Are you saying that every single HSR route in Europe or Japan is strictly point to point, with no stops in between? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/144 "2019-02-19T18:13:58Z")
By en route stops I meant the “little” towns you mentioned, like Madison. The key is to connect the “hub” cities with an alternative to flying that is time-effective and cost-effective. Stopping in between hubs kills both. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/145 "2019-02-19T18:16:39Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > You may well know better than I, but every potential map I’ve seen has shown a line from Chicago to Cincy, by way of Indy. Or Chicago to Minneapolis, via Milwaukee and Madison. > > Are you saying that every single HSR route in Europe or Japan is strictly point to point, with no stops in between? I think the idea is that HSR should link major cities, so I think the cities you listed would probably be included for stops in any HSR proposal. Smaller suburbs and exurbs and smaller cities and towns would need to be bypassed. [This article](https://transportgeography.org/?page_id=7457) discusses the details of laying-out a HSR network. _Distance between stations. A distance of 50 km is often considered a minimum, leaving enough for trains to accelerate and reach cruising speed that makes the advantages of high speed rail relevant. Servicing too many stations undermines the rationale of high speed systems, which is to service large urban agglomerations in a fast and continuous manner._ ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/146 "2019-02-19T19:17:26Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > By en route stops I meant the “little” towns you mentioned, like Madison. The key is to connect the “hub” cities with an alternative to flying that is time-effective and cost-effective. Stopping in between hubs kills both. Madison is a state capitol, w/ a Big 10 University and an airport. Don’t know what kind of service it would support. I think that Madison is considered “on the route” from Chicago to Minneapolis via Milwaukee. Similar to Indianapolis on the way between Chicago and Cincy. I’ve long thought the Dallas/San Antonio/Houston triangle could support HSR. Possibly Atlanta/Charlotte/Jacksonville. In my mind, the main function would be to reduce the need for short-hop regional flights. So one analysis would be to see where those are concentrated. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/147 "2019-02-19T19:27:29Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > In my mind, the main function would be to reduce the need for short-hop regional flights. So one analysis would be to see where those are concentrated. Check out the article **snowthx** linked to, or see this .[pdf](https://transportgeography.org/wp-content/uploads/Map_Busiest-Air-Travel-Routes.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/148 "2019-02-19T19:30:50Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Madison is a state capitol, w/ a Big 10 University and an airport. Don’t know what kind of service it would support. It’s also the second-biggest city in Wisconsin – 255K in the city proper, 654K in the MSA. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/149 "2019-02-19T20:18:24Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Check out the article **snowthx** linked to, or see this .[pdf](https://transportgeography.org/wp-content/uploads/Map_Busiest-Air-Travel-Routes.pdf). Thanks - I think. 😕 I did read the article, and that pdf doesn’t seem to show anything about short-hop regional flights - unless you are comparing those routes to interplanetary travel! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/150 "2019-02-19T20:40:10Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I assume that if California had pursued HSR, it would have been on dedicated lines, so there would have been no conflict with freight traffic. Yes, that’s true. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/151 "2019-02-19T20:43:56Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > It’s also the second-biggest city in Wisconsin – 255K in the city proper, 654K in the MSA. Yes, but do they _go anywhere_? That’s going to be the key with HSR - passenger density. A line linking Dallas and San Antonio would be nice, but just how many people fly that route now? **Dinsdale** has the rub - what short hop air routes can be effectively eliminated by HSR without incurring impossible costs? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/152 "2019-02-19T22:18:05Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Yes, but do they _go anywhere_? Fair enough. Expedia tells me that, from Madison’s airport: - 12 nonstop flights per day to Chicago O’Hare - 5 nonstop flights per day to Minneapolis-St. Paul Those are just the two “ends” of that theoretical HSR route, of course, and are the nearest two hub airports for airlines that serve Madison. I also see five nonstops to Detroit, which is Delta’s (formerly Northwest’s) other midwestern hub. ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/153 "2019-02-19T22:20:14Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > There is a great deal of public support for HSR in China… I’m curious about how you know this. Public opinion polls? I’ve not heard of them in China–could you link to one showing the support for high-speed rail? Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/154 "2019-02-19T22:33:14Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Yes, but do they _go anywhere_? That’s going to be the key with HSR - passenger density. A line linking Dallas and San Antonio would be nice, but just how many people fly that route now? **Dinsdale** has the rub - what short hop air routes can be effectively eliminated by HSR without incurring impossible costs? Keep in mind a Dallas-San Antonio HSR route would probably have a single stop in Austin, which would obviate the need for both the Dallas-Austin and Dallas-San Antonio flights. The Dallas-Houston flights seem to be awfully full in my experience- SWA flies hourly on weekdays, and other airlines have quite a few flights between those two cities as well, which is my guess as to why they are choosing that particular route to begin. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/155 "2019-02-19T22:45:45Z")
The Texas private high speed rail project will not happen. Nor will any other HSR project in the US. And it’s not because Americans don’t have the ingenuity, or political leaders don’t have the gumption to make it happen. It’s because of the US’s property rights laws. Other countries have stronger imminent domain principles, which allow them to take large swaths of land in a straight line without judicial challenges from citizens. If your track isn’t in a relatively straight line for hundreds of miles then HSR doesn’t work. You can’t maintain that speed. In the US property buyouts are difficult to do as the individual property owners realize that their section becomes more valuable when it’s needed maintain that straight track. And if imminent domain is used it will 100% end up in the courts for decades challenging the market value assigned to the property. HSR will never happen in the US under our current system of government. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/156 "2019-02-19T23:44:54Z")
[Eminent domain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain), not imminent domain. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2019, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/157 "2019-02-19T23:49:51Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > There is a great deal of public support for HSR in China, so, by your own logic, Tienanmen square has fuck all to do with the topic at hand. It has everything to do with the topic which is about HSR in the US. We don’t want it and not only does our opinion count but 10,000 people didn’t have to die in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/158 "2019-02-20T01:12:10Z")
[Trump wants the federal money back](https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-high-speed-rail-20190219-story.html). ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/159 "2019-02-20T02:00:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It has everything to do with the topic which is about HSR in the US. We don’t want it and not only does our opinion count but 10,000 people didn’t have to die in the process. You’re aware that HSR in California was passed by the voters, right? ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2019, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549/160 "2019-02-20T02:27:02Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You’re aware that HSR in California was passed by the voters, right? Californians voted to authorize bonds of $9 billion to fund a system that was required to run at least 200 mph and go from San Francisco to Los Angeles in no more than 2 hours and 40 minutes. The system currently being built will meet few of the requirements in [the law the voters approved](http://vig.cdn.sos.ca.gov/2008/general/pdf-guide/suppl-complete-guide.pdf#prop1a). No, the voters approved an idealized version of an HSR system, not the current boondoggle. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-gives-up-high-speed-rail-project-why-is-the-us-a-failure-and-laughing-stock/829549.md?page=9)