# California Judge Rules Making a Cake is "Artistic Expression" - Denies LGBT Discrimination Claim **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2018, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372 "2018-02-07T16:46:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/221 "2018-02-08T18:39:31Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > The kid, generally, brings nothing original or innovative to the work. Sklee follows a set of clearly laid out instructions from which sklee is not to deviate, indeed sklee can lose skler job by deviating too much or too often. To continue with the Warhol analogy, they are like the workers at Styria Studios Inc. who produced his screen prints. This. A baker is a craftsperson and he or she should have the right to refuse commissions they don’t want for whatever reason. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/222 "2018-02-08T18:41:41Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > This. A baker is a craftsperson and he or she should have the right to refuse commissions they don’t want for whatever reason. “Sorry I don’t make cakes for Black people” You think that is totally fine? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/223 "2018-02-08T18:43:40Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > “You’re black. Get out of my store!” > > You are ok with that? If it’s the store owner of an independent business saying that, yes. Now I think that person is probably being unnecessarily harsh and his or her actions may have economic ramifications from the loss of potential customers, but if he or she wants to run their business that way it’s their choice. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/224 "2018-02-08T18:47:16Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > If it’s the store owner of an independent business saying that, yes. Now I think that person is probably being unnecessarily harsh and his or her actions may have economic ramifications from the loss of potential customers, but if he or she wants to run their business that way it’s their choice. Most people consider the era of Jim Crow to be a bad thing. What happens in a town where all the merchants feel this way. Tough luck for a black person passing through? No gas for them and that is ok? Make no mistake places like that would exist in this country if allowed to. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/225 "2018-02-08T18:47:20Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > “Sorry I don’t make cakes for Black people” > > You think that is totally fine? As long as the baker owns the bakery, yes. If he or she doesn’t then the situation is between him or her and the bakery owner. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/226 "2018-02-08T18:48:12Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > If it’s the store owner of an independent business saying that, yes. Now I think that person is probably being unnecessarily harsh and his or her actions may have economic ramifications from the loss of potential customers, but if he or she wants to run their business that way it’s their choice. Must be easy to hold this opinion if you’re not part of a group that is commonly and/or historically discriminated against. If a store said “sorry we don’t make cakes for white dudes” I have a feeling this would not be acceptable to those that think bakers shouldn’t have to make cakes for gay people. Think of the traction that story would have on Fox “news” or Breitbart. The tiki torches would be out in force. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/227 "2018-02-08T18:50:00Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > It’s the act of commissioning the artist to make a product specifically for a particular customer is where the line should and hopefully will be drawn. The ‘dozen donuts’ are standard production at the bakery and would have been made regardless of who was coming into buy them. No bakery that I am aware of regularly makes wedding cakes on the off chance that someone will wander in wanting to buy one. Of course they do not. Wedding cakes are made to order. And making a wedding cake to order for a heterosexual couple is something that many bakeries regularly do. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/228 "2018-02-08T18:51:56Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > As long as the baker owns the bakery, yes. If he or she doesn’t then the situation is between him or her and the bakery owner. Kind of baffled that someone is actually supporting publicly the idea that businesses should be free to discriminate against black people. In 2018. Wow. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/229 "2018-02-08T18:52:05Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Most people consider the era of Jim Crow to be a bad thing. It’s not Jim Crow if the right of any small business owner (black, white, hispanic, asian, etc.) to refuse service are respected. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/230 "2018-02-08T18:56:36Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > Unlike a cake, there is no way that a Subway sandwich could be customized to endorse a religious or political belief (or taste good, but that’s another matter.) I want my pickles cut into swastikas ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/231 "2018-02-08T18:56:55Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Why isn’t the kid at Subway an artist? How is what he/she does different from the “chef at corporate level” such that one is an artist and the other is not, in your opinion? Perhaps your argument would be better served using Benihana’s as the example. There the chef has a definite artistic expression in his creation. Subway is to art as fart is to perfume. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/232 "2018-02-08T18:58:49Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Must be easy to hold this opinion if you’re not part of a group that is commonly and/or historically discriminated against. > > If a store said “sorry we don’t make cakes for white dudes” I have a feeling this would not be acceptable to those that think bakers shouldn’t have to make cakes for gay people. Think of the traction that story would have on Fox “news” or Breitbart. The tiki torches would be out in force. I’m Roma. I am not considered white or at least not white enough to be treated with the usual courtesies. I know discrimination when I see it and baker not wanting to bake a cake is no big deal. Interestingly enough the majority of the stores I have ever been ordered out of (because it’s assumed I was a shoplifter since I was Roma), have been owned by blacks. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/233 "2018-02-08T19:01:13Z")
It’s actually useful that **ZPG Zealot** has brought up the Jim Crow comparisons. The arguments in defense of the baker’s anti-gay bigotry are in fact exactly the same, other than the “artistic freedom” cover story (and that may have been present in some cases too). The “religious freedom” and “freedom of association” claims are pure echoes. Jim Crow is exactly why we have public accommodation laws for businesses, and it makes no difference that anti-gay bigots are stifled as effectively as anti-black bigots, whatever the rationalizations and simple bullshit excuses they and their supporters may tell instead. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/234 "2018-02-08T19:01:26Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > It’s not Jim Crow if the right of any small business owner (black, white, hispanic, asian, etc.) to refuse service are respected. Pretend you are a black farmer out in rural America. The locals won’t do business with you so you can’t get your machinery fixed or gas for your harvesters or seeds to plant and so on which raises your costs dramatically trying to get it done in remote locations or have stuff shipped in just for you. A-ok by you right? ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/235 "2018-02-08T19:03:23Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Kind of baffled that someone is actually supporting publicly the idea that businesses should be free to discriminate against black people. In 2018. Wow. It’s not about discriminating against black people. It’s about small business owners being free to choose their customers. Quite honestly one of the great attractions to owning your own business is being able to turn away customers as opposed to always having to be grovellingly polite to everyone. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/236 "2018-02-08T19:03:49Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I’m Roma. **I am not considered white or at least not white enough to be treated with the usual courtesies.** I know discrimination when I see it and baker not wanting to bake a cake is no big deal. Interestingly enough the majority of the stores I have ever been ordered out of (because it’s assumed I was a shoplifter since I was Roma), have been owned by blacks. You complain about the same bigotry that drives bigotry against African-Americans. Yet all you’re demanding is to be treated as a white person. You seem to have no interest in equality. Just how are you identified so easily as Roma? Unless you’re dressed in the stereotypical clothing that most people are familiar with, I wouldn’t have a clue. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/237 "2018-02-08T19:06:01Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > If it’s the store owner of an independent business saying that, yes. Now I think that person is probably being unnecessarily harsh and his or her actions may have economic ramifications from the loss of potential customers, but if he or she wants to run their business that way it’s their choice. If you own an apartment complex, and you don’t want to rent out units to black people, that’s fine? If you have a realty agency, and you refuse to show black people houses in certain neighborhoods, that’s fine? If you own a bank, and you refuse to sell mortgages to black people, that’s fine? If you own a gas station, and you refuse to sell gas to black people, that’s fine? If you have a hotel, and you refuse to rent lodging to black people, that’s fine too? We have public accomodation laws in this country because a business uses public resources. In exchange for having an opportunity to make a profit off of the use of public resources, there are some requirements. One of those requirements, very easy to follow, is that you may not discriminate against protected classes. If you are an independent business owner, and you cannot follow that simple rule, then you are free to close your doors and no longer be open to the public. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/238 "2018-02-08T19:09:23Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I want my pickles cut into swastikas If you cut them into swastikas for the previous customer, but won’t for me, because I am a protected class, that’s discrimination. If you have never done so, it is not a service that you offer, then it is not something I can demand from you. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/239 "2018-02-08T19:09:23Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > It’s not about discriminating against black people. It’s about small business owners being free to choose their customers. Quite honestly one of the great attractions to owning your own business is being able to turn away customers as opposed to always having to be grovellingly polite to everyone. Sure its about discrimination. It’s literally about being able to discriminate against people in a public business. I thought we already decided this was wrong back in the Woolworth’s lunch counter days, but it seems some people think that should have been decided the other way back then, which I find a pretty repugnant viewpoint to be honest. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/240 "2018-02-08T19:09:58Z")
I realize this is late in the thread to be asking this, but I’m unclear from both the original article and subsequent posts. Did the business owner refuse to make the cake herself or to allow her employees to make the cake? I looked up the bakery online, and it looks like it has a pretty extensive offering of pastries, etc.–more than one person could make herself. I’ve only known one bakery owner, and he didn’t make every item himself. In fact, no matter how “artisanal” the cakes, I’d be surprised if the owner herself baked and decorated each one by hand. Each cake may have different elements, but most of the elements themselves are pretty standardized. The cakes may be “artisanal,” but that doesn’t mean they’re made by the owner’s hands. Since this is not a one-person shop, I’m not clear on why a cake produced at this shop is considered artistic expression. I’m sure there’s an explanation; I’m just not sure what it is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372.md?page=13)