# California Judge Rules Making a Cake is "Artistic Expression" - Denies LGBT Discrimination Claim **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2018, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372 "2018-02-07T16:46:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/21 "2018-02-07T17:40:08Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > That’s not quite the question, istm. How is a wedding cake different from a sloppy joe, in your view? That does raise the question of whether the caterers could decide that their religious beliefs mean that they could not provide the sloppy joes or any other food, for that matter, to the happy couple. I would argue that caterers are more involved than a baker, as the caterers actually need to attend the event. They need to set everything up, the need to keep it stocked, sometimes they also provide service like carving stations, they then need to break everything down and clean up. Seems to me that caterers would have a more valid objection. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/22 "2018-02-07T17:40:15Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I don’t have anything against the christian lifestyle. I just don’t see why they have to flaunt it in public for everyone to see. Why do you hate the first amendment? Seriously, can you explain this position, how it has any relevance to the case in question and how you would enforce it? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/23 "2018-02-07T17:41:59Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Is that according to Judge Lampe? Or your opinion? I assume that’s Velocity’s drawing of a line between artistic expression or simple production. Here’s the almost exact same case awaiting a Supreme Court decision: [Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masterpiece_Cakeshop_v._Colorado_Civil_Rights_Commission) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/24 "2018-02-07T17:44:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Did you read the article and the summary of the opinion of the judge? The distinction is clear. Now, we can argue if the distinction rises to the level of triggering first amendment protection, but it’s silly to say there is no distinction. I meant no such thing and no, I can’t be arsed to read the article. As I posted just above, there’s already a case awaiting SC decision so who cares what this California judge said. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/25 "2018-02-07T17:45:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Why do you hate the first amendment? > > Seriously, can you explain this position, how it has any relevance to the case in question and how you would enforce it? I don’t hate the first amendment; it just doesn’t go far enough. I don’t know what else there is to explain except that I have no problems with christians. I even have some friends who are christian. I just don’t see why they have to always be throwing their christianity in our faces. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/26 "2018-02-07T17:49:21Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > That does raise the question of whether the caterers could decide that their religious beliefs mean that they could not provide the sloppy joes or any other food, for that matter, to the happy couple. > > I would argue that caterers are more involved than a baker, as the caterers actually need to attend the event. They need to set everything up, the need to keep it stocked, sometimes they also provide service like carving stations, they then need to break everything down and clean up. Seems to me that caterers would have a more valid objection. Being more involved isn’t the issue. It’s the act of creating something that carries a message. A cake with two plastic grooms on top with “Larry loves Steve” written on it is celebrating a gay marriage, slicing roast beef doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/27 "2018-02-07T17:49:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Why do you hate the first amendment? > > Seriously, can you explain this position, how it has any relevance to the case in question and how you would enforce it? Pretty sure he’s doing a reverse on this position: “I have no problems with the gays, but why do they have to be gay in public” or sentiments like that. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/28 "2018-02-07T17:50:48Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > I don’t hate the first amendment; it just doesn’t go far enough. > > I don’t know what else there is to explain except that I have no problems with christians. I even have some friends who are christian. I just don’t see why they have to always be throwing their christianity in our faces. Just to be clear, then, you are talking about a personal preference and not the details of this particular case? I can more or less agree with you, on a personal level. I don’t care much for overt religiosity. But I thought we were discussing a legal matter. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/29 "2018-02-07T17:52:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Just to be clear, then, you are talking about a personal preference and not the details of this particular case? I can more or less agree with you, on a personal level. I don’t care much for overt religiosity. But I thought we were discussing a legal matter. You have been wooshed I’m afraid. Substitute “gay” where he is saying Christian and you’ll see he’s just parroting things anti gay people have been saying for years but reversing who it is being said about. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/30 "2018-02-07T18:00:14Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Pretty sure he’s doing a reverse on this position: > > “I have no problems with the gays, but why do they have to be gay in public” or sentiments like that. Or imitating racists who “have black friends” but wish they didn’t act so ghetto? Not sure that sells his point well, though. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/31 "2018-02-07T18:03:31Z")
Stupid business model to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/32 "2018-02-07T18:05:07Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Or imitating racists who “have black friends” but wish they didn’t act so ghetto? Not sure that sells his point well, though. I think the point is that when people say discriminatory things about Christians that have been said forever about gays, blacks, whomever, all of a sudden eyebrows are raised. The eyebrows should have always been raised, not just when its the dominant social group being spoken about. I think it serves that point well, but is not necessarily totally relevant to this particular discussion topic. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/33 "2018-02-07T18:06:21Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Or why they need to shove it down everyone’s throat. I am not sure how that applies in this case. The Christian owner was asked to do something that goes against her beliefs so she declined. The couple that requested the cake then went to the state and filed a complaint. Someone is attempting to shove something down someone else’s throat. You just have the participants backwards. Note, I think the bakery owner is a jackass. Slee ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/34 "2018-02-07T18:14:02Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Being more involved isn’t the issue. It’s the act of creating something that carries a message. A cake with two plastic grooms on top with “Larry loves Steve” written on it is celebrating a gay marriage, slicing roast beef doesn’t. Caterers create. Just as much, and more, as a baker does. There is more time and effort involved in planning, prepping, and executing a catering event than there is in baking a cake and putting frosting on it. There are color themes and decorations involved. It literally is called “Culinary Arts”. How is popping some cake batter in an oven for a bit and then putting decorations on it any more of an act of “artistic expression” than putting together a several course meal for hundreds of people? If it is just about the names on the cake, well, caterers also put name cards out on tables. The complaint I always hear is that it is forcing them to “participate” in the celebration. The baker doesn’t, he at most drops off the cake and drives away. The caterer actually does have to participate. I am not arguing that caterers should be able to discriminate against people based on protected attributes, I am just saying that if the baker wins, then the caterer should be next to refuse service to a gay couple, and should be able to refuse service on the same merits. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/35 "2018-02-07T18:16:43Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > I am not sure how that applies in this case. The Christian owner was asked to do something that goes against her beliefs so she declined. The couple that requested the cake then went to the state and filed a complaint. > > Someone is attempting to shove something down someone else’s throat. You just have the participants backwards. > > Note, I think the bakery owner is a jackass. > > Slee I think the point is whether trying to buy a cake for a gay wedding is “shoving it down someone’s throat” anymore than a black man sitting at a whites only lunch counter is shoving his blackness down the diner owner’s throat. I guess for the first few trial cases that’s true but at the end of the day, they just want to eat lunch without worrying about their blackness. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/36 "2018-02-07T18:19:02Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > The complaint I always hear is that it is forcing them to “participate” in the celebration. The baker doesn’t, he at most drops off the cake and drives away. The caterer actually does have to participate. But the complaints you hear don’t seem to be legal arguments, just yahoos on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/37 "2018-02-07T18:20:28Z")
Isn’t this exactly the same issue that the Supreme Court just heard oral arguments on? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/38 "2018-02-07T18:20:46Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > I am not sure how that applies in this case. The Christian owner was asked to do something that goes against her beliefs so she declined. The couple that requested the cake then went to the state and filed a complaint. > > Someone is attempting to shove something down someone else’s throat. You just have the participants backwards. > > Note, I think the bakery owner is a jackass. > > Slee [Muslim Cab Drivers Refuse to Transport Alcohol, and Dogs](http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=2827800&page=1) > [@](#): > > The state agency that licenses cab drivers prohibits discrimination against passengers unless the driver feels his life is in danger. > > “This is a public access issue,” says Chuck Samuelson, of the American Civil Liberties Union of Minnesota, \*\*“Bottom line is we are a secular society, and that’s the way it is.” \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/39 "2018-02-07T18:20:50Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Being more involved isn’t the issue. It’s the act of creating something that carries a message. A cake with two plastic grooms on top with “Larry loves Steve” written on it is celebrating a gay marriage, slicing roast beef doesn’t. Until the gay couple requests that the slice be a little thinner or that the plate is served without the parsley or something, THEN it’ll be an artistic expression and not just standard fare. In fact, if the conceit of the restaurant was simply a-la-carte, and thus each dinner served is “a unique creation”, the owners could just discriminate like mofos! ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2018, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/40 "2018-02-07T18:29:03Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [Muslim Cab Drivers Refuse to Transport Alcohol, and Dogs](http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=2827800&page=1) I wonder how many homophobic people feel the same way about this as they do about the bigoted baker’s case. I personally don’t know how I feel about _any_ case involving beliefs and public or quasi-public services. It’s a very very tricky subject. Much easier to sit at the sidelines and look for hypocrites 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372.md?page=3)