# California Judge Rules Making a Cake is "Artistic Expression" - Denies LGBT Discrimination Claim **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2018, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372 "2018-02-07T16:46:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2018, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/501 "2018-02-09T22:20:37Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > And me? And you what? If you’re talking about your ability to say anything you want on this message board, I’m quite confident that the first amendment protects you from government interference with your posting. Any other interference you’re concerned about probably should be asked about in a different forum. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2018, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/502 "2018-02-09T22:21:01Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > It is pretty much the exact same thing. > > I think a lot of people are forgetting that this is a county level court decision on a preliminary injunction. If anyone thinks that an actual verdict on the case which includes “cake making being the greatest form of expressive conduct” survives a single higher court judgment in frigging California, I got a bridge to sell you. I am looking at you Morgenstern. All these guys acting like lawyers in this thread patently ignoring the opposite decision in the Colorado Court of Appeals and pretending the SC final decision won’t have an effect on California, fucking laughable. The Colorado courts have diddly squat to do with the California courts. No Colorado court has any authority in this case. You’re still not grasping the 1st Amendment argument in this. Freedom of expression, includes the right to “not express” too. Mandating an individual’s artistic expression is Constitutionally suspect. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2018, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/503 "2018-02-09T22:24:45Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > And you what? > > If you’re talking about your ability to say anything you want on this message board, I’m quite confident that the first amendment protects you from government interference with your posting. > > Any other interference you’re concerned about probably should be asked about in a different forum. Either respond to my emails or respond here to my content or respond in ABTMB if it comes to that. A burn notice quote comes to mind. Gawd what shitty modding. In this instance…overall modding around here mostly rocks. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2018, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/504 "2018-02-09T22:24:56Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > It could be argued that the act of selling a flag to someone knowing they are going to deface it or the more likely context refusing to sell someone a flag because the merchant believes the customer is going to deface is an action that falls under free speech protection. If the object in question to be sold is something that is the artist’s original creation the need for creative protection becomes even more imperative. It crosses my mind here that it matters that flag-burners are not, generally speaking, a protected class, or even a quasi-protected class. It’s fairly standard to see signs or hear the phrase “We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.” However, after that Jim Crow business, the government got annoyed and said, “You know what? You’re wrong. You have the right to refuse service to anyone UNLESS you’re refusing them because they’re black, or female, or any of these other specific protected classes.” But aside from those rules, stores can still deny business. So unless the reason for denying them the flag sale can be tied to a protected class, then the store can totally refuse to sell. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2018, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/505 "2018-02-09T22:25:22Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > You’re still not grasping the 1st Amendment argument in this… …or perhaps merely disagrees? . ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2018, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/506 "2018-02-09T22:26:14Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > It could be argued that the act of selling a flag to someone knowing they are going to deface it or the more likely context refusing to sell someone a flag because the merchant believes the customer is going to deface is an action that falls under free speech protection. If the object in question to be sold is something that is the artist’s original creation the need for creative protection becomes even more imperative. You say it could be argued. Make the argument. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/507 "2018-02-09T22:27:26Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > The Colorado courts have diddly squat to do with the California courts. No Colorado court has any authority in this case. > > You’re still not grasping the 1st Amendment argument in this. Freedom of expression, includes the right to “not express” too. Mandating an individual’s artistic expression is Constitutionally suspect. Are you denying the constitutionality of all class protections? Given a sufficiently broad interpretation, cake selling, yelling, stalking, punching, and hanging a person could all be classified as speech. In fact I’d say that lynching somebody is very clearly speech. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2018, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/508 "2018-02-09T22:35:36Z")
> [@andros](#): > > …or perhaps merely disagrees? > . I’d like to know why someone disagreed other than “wedding cake divas think they are artists, pfttttt” ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2018, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/509 "2018-02-09T22:43:43Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Are you denying the constitutionality of all class protections? Given a sufficiently broad interpretation, cake selling, yelling, stalking, punching, and hanging a person could all be classified as speech. > > In fact I’d say that lynching somebody is very clearly speech. -constitutionality of all class protections -cake selling -punching -hanging a person ---------could all be classified as speech -lynching somebody is very clearly speech Was this from 1st semester or 2nd semester ConLaw? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2018, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/510 "2018-02-09T22:47:22Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I’d like to know why someone disagreed other than “wedding cake divas think they are artists, pfttttt” I think they can be artists but they are making a cake to order. They are told the color,shape and flavor by the customer. If they were hired and merely told “make me a fancy cake that celebrates our love” you might have a point. As it stands, you don’t. They are simply skilled craftsman producing a fairly standard product. And when the Supreme Court decidez on the Colorado case it will effect future California decisions. Could you explain why you disagree with that? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2018, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/511 "2018-02-09T22:59:45Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > -constitutionality of all class protections > -cake selling > -punching > -hanging a person > ---------could all be classified as speech > -lynching somebody is very clearly speech > > Was this from 1st semester or 2nd semester ConLaw? Nice ad hominem. I notice that you didn’t actually _make any argument_. By that I take it you understand that the position that “every possible action is speech and all speech overrides other laws” is moronic bullshit, despite your defense of it. Clearly the laws CAN be made abridging the freedom of speech, when you define is as “whatever the hell I want to call free speech”. Which is the position the judge in question is taking. There are laws against being a bigot in business. If you can use the first amendment to do an end run around them, then the right thing to do is challenge the anti-discrimination laws directly and have them struck down as unconstitutional. Not whatever idiotic bullshit this judge is trying to pull. And then of course the next thing to do is go after the laws against murder. Stupid liberals have messed with our lynching parties long enough! ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2018, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/512 "2018-02-09T23:11:27Z")
It may or it may not. What if the upcoming ruling addresses the underlying Colorado statutes and whether they are constitutional as applied? Do you think such a ruling would change California law any at all? It’s a balance. The rights of LGBT individuals in the marketplace vs the rights of an artist to \* not express \*him/herself due to religious beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2018, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/513 "2018-02-09T23:12:38Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Nice ad hominem. I notice that you didn’t actually _make any argument_. > > By that I take it you understand that the position that “every possible action is speech and all speech overrides other laws” is moronic bullshit, despite your defense of it. > > Clearly the laws CAN be made abridging the freedom of speech, when you define is as “whatever the hell I want to call free speech”. Which is the position the judge in question is taking. > > There are laws against being a bigot in business. If you can use the first amendment to do an end run around them, then the right thing to do is challenge the anti-discrimination laws directly and have them struck down as unconstitutional. Not whatever idiotic bullshit this judge is trying to pull. > > And then of course the next thing to do is go after the laws against murder. Stupid liberals have messed with our lynching parties long enough! If your arguments ever focus on the issues here, we’ll continue. Otherwise, have a nice day. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2018, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/514 "2018-02-09T23:17:08Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > If your arguments ever focus on the issues here, we’ll continue. Otherwise, have a nice day. As concessions go a pretty graceless one, but I’ll take it. I honestly don’t think anyone here’s going to buy that I’m off-topic here, after all. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2018, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/515 "2018-02-09T23:23:55Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > It may or it may not. What if the upcoming ruling addresses the underlying Colorado statutes and whether they are constitutional as applied? Do you think such a ruling would change California law any at all?. Very likely. Regardless, this goofball judge’s decision won’t survive above his county court. I can’t imagine you think many California judges are gonna agree with your silly position. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2018, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/516 "2018-02-09T23:41:05Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I’d like to know why someone disagreed other than “wedding cake divas think they are artists, pfttttt” There was a thread somewhere around here where a lot of people went into some detail why they opposed this ruling. Let me see if I can dig it up for you. Ah, yeah, [here it is](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=848778). Maybe you can find your answer in there? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2018, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/517 "2018-02-09T23:41:07Z")
For what it’s worth, it’s the baker who’s being silly. The legal issue is less clear-cut. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2018, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/518 "2018-02-09T23:44:09Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Very likely. Regardless, this goofball judge’s decision won’t survive above his county court. I can’t imagine you think many California judges are gonna agree with your silly position. It’s not a county court. It was the Superior Court of California. Albeit it in the county. The court above the Superior court is the CA Court of Appeal, and above that is the SCOC. It’s not like this was some justice of the peace in Mayberry. This case is probably dead. Respondent’s attorney is motioning for a dismissal of the underlying case based on the strength of the judges order. This isn’t the case to carry forward the underlying equality fight. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2018, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/519 "2018-02-09T23:54:15Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > It’s not a county court. It was the Superior Court of California. Albeit it in the county. The court above the Superior court is the CA Court of Appeal, and above that is the SCOC. It’s not like this was some justice of the peace in Mayberry. What court is below it? Because I read somewhere that “The superior courts are the lowest level of state courts in California holding general jurisdiction on civil and criminal matters.” ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2018, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/520 "2018-02-10T00:01:37Z")
Also, there’s 58 “Superior” courts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372.md?page=27)