# California Judge Rules Making a Cake is "Artistic Expression" - Denies LGBT Discrimination Claim **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2018, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372 "2018-02-07T16:46:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2018, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/541 "2018-02-10T03:25:14Z")
> [@Euphrosyne](#): > > A wedding cake for the celebration of the union of two men. A union which is forbidden by God. You still haven’t read the case this thread is about? > [@](#): > > Undoubtedly, the baker can in good conscience sell to a couple of men who are in a homosexual relaitonship, a plain fresh- out-of-the-oven cake, if that’s what they want. Or a birthday cake, or a Hallowe’en cake. Or a cake with the words, “Happy graduation, Emily!” and piped flowers all over it. Or a plain carrot cake with cream cheese icing. Or a bundt cake, a pineapple upside-down cake, a strawberry shortbread, a red velvet cake . . . but she cannot in conscience exercise her artistic expression to arrange decorations and embellishments suitable for a wedding to the order of two men entering into a civil union which is forbidden by God. Why in your opinion would the bakers conscience apply to only wedding cakes? If they have a bigoted belief system that preaches hated towards all homosexuals, why shouldn’t they be able to refuse to use their artistic ability to make anything that would provide sustenance to a homosexual? ‘I’m a pious believer of my faith, my faith dictates the world would be better off without gay people, it is gods wrath for them to starve, therefore I shall not make them food’ Are you claiming someones christian belief, against gay marriage, should be weighed differently that a KKK members belief against interracial marriage? ---
**Author:** ![Euphrosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d9b06d/32.png) [@Euphrosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphrosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2018, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/542 "2018-02-10T03:31:02Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Thats right - you do - and if my ‘faith in some invisible sky god’ required me to be a martyr before I baked a cake for that weird couple down the street’ - seems a monetary fine is a small price to pay to appease said god. Not in a country with a First Amendment, it’s not. But, . . . you don’t much care for the First Amendment, do you? All that pesky business about the State not prohibiting the people’s free exercise of their religious beliefs. Who thought \*that \*up? That’s gotta go. The State should be able to do what it wants, when it wants, to whomever it wants, for any reason it wants. After all: _it’s the State_! Right? Am I right? And any number of people here have criticized my use of the word _totalitarianism_ in this regard. At least have the guts to own up to it, when that’s what you’re advocating! ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2018, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/543 "2018-02-10T03:33:48Z")
Calming that everything a person does falls under the heading of “practicing their religion” is an awfully big umbrella, and an awfully convieniant one at that. If their church required them to tithe 10% of their income, but paying federal income tax caused them to not be able to afford it, then should they be off the hook for paying taxes, since it interferes with their ability to practice religious beliefs? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2018, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/544 "2018-02-10T03:34:25Z")
( **Euphrosyne** , please ease back a bit. I know this is an emotional issue for you, but you’re coming across a little breathless, and I hope to continue this discussion civilly.) ---
**Author:** ![Euphrosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d9b06d/32.png) [@Euphrosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphrosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2018, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/545 "2018-02-10T04:09:50Z")
> [@andros](#): > > So you’re totally fine with being denied service at a place of business for being Catholic? > . I don’t agree that the couple being married were “denied service at a place of business.” That’s much too broad a characterization for what happened. No, it’s not fair to deny others service at a place of business. Service such as a tank of gas, a sandwich and a drink, a room for the night. We have to narrow the focus way down. It _is_ fair to refuse to exercise your artistic expression to apply decorative embellishments to a made-to-order product, when the message (implied or overt) conveyed would be one that violates your conscience. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2018, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/546 "2018-02-10T04:16:49Z")
> [@Euphrosyne](#): > > Not in a country with a First Amendment, it’s not. > > But, . . . you don’t much care for the First Amendment, do you? All that pesky business about the State not prohibiting the people’s free exercise of their religious beliefs. Well, now, hang on a minute here. Nobody in this thread is against the first amendment. I’m a big fan of it myself: it’s what protects people like me from people like you. I just don’t buy the tortured logic you’re employing to try to stretch the amendment so far that it covers this woman’s bigotry. “Not buying your argument” != “Not liking the first amendment.” ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2018, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/547 "2018-02-10T04:18:11Z")
> [@Euphrosyne](#): > > {…} Therefore a Catholic baker needs to avoid becoming involved in facilitating in any way the celebration of a union that God does not permit. {…} > [@Euphrosyne](#): > > {…} No, it’s not fair to deny others service at a place of business. Service such as a tank of gas, a sandwich and a drink, a room for the night. > > We have to narrow the focus way down. > > It _is_ fair to refuse to exercise your artistic expression to apply decorative embellishments to a made-to-order product, when the message (implied or overt) conveyed would be one that violates your conscience. Is it “avoid becoming involved in facilitating in any way the celebration of a union that God does not permit” or not? CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2018, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/548 "2018-02-10T04:25:49Z")
I suppose the question I’d ask you to ponder while you’ll thinking about the rights of the cake bakers, is why certain groups are “protected classes”. What happened in our country’s history brought us to the point that certain groups need protection. Then you might understand why so many of us feel passionately about this side of the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Euphrosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d9b06d/32.png) [@Euphrosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphrosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2018, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/549 "2018-02-10T04:29:59Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > You still haven’t read the case this thread is about? > > Why in your opinion would the bakers conscience apply to only wedding cakes? If they have a bigoted belief system that preaches hated towards all homosexuals, why shouldn’t they be able to refuse to use their artistic ability to make anything that would provide sustenance to a homosexual? > > ‘I’m a pious believer of my faith, my faith dictates the world would be better off without gay people, it is gods wrath for them to starve, therefore I shall not make them food’ > > Are you claiming someones christian belief, against gay marriage, should be weighed differently that a KKK members belief against interracial marriage? * * * Can you help me with a real-life scenario in which the denial of artistic expression on the part of one service provider, would constitute the denial of the sustenance necessary to life itself? Because I sure can’t think of one. As a Catholic, I can’t help you with the dilemma of the KKK members. The KKK hate Catholics, as well as people of color and Jews, so I don’t know any, or know much about them. I do know that the Bible says that “God created them male and female.” The Bible doesn’t, however, say anything about God creating mankind in different colors, and then commanding us to keep the different colors separate and apart. It’s not in there. And what Catholics believe, even though interpreted for us by the Church, ultimately finds its foundations is Sacred Scripture. So we do know the Bible, and we know what’s in it. And anti-miscegenation laws ain’t in it. I believe the KKK has a history of expressly inciting and approving of violence against people of color. That being the case, I would have to ask myself whether the KKK’s approval of and willingness to use violence against people of color wasn’t driving their concerns about interracial marriage. Instead of any deeply held religious convictions of theirs, driving those concerns. So that would be a question I would want answered. ---
**Author:** ![Euphrosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d9b06d/32.png) [@Euphrosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphrosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2018, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/550 "2018-02-10T04:33:07Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Is it “avoid becoming involved in facilitating in any way the celebration of a union that God does not permit” or not? > > CMC fnord! It is. (I’m not sure I understand where I wasn’t clear earlier . . . ?) ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2018, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/551 "2018-02-10T04:35:07Z")
> [@Euphrosyne](#): > > It is. > > (I’m not sure I understand where I wasn’t clear earlier . . . ?) So filling the car with gas that’s taking the brides to their wedding would count? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2018, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/552 "2018-02-10T04:36:14Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > I suppose the question I’d ask you to ponder while you’ll thinking about the rights of the cake bakers, is why certain groups are “protected classes”. What happened in our country’s history brought us to the point that certain groups need protection. > > Then you might understand why so many of us feel passionately about this side of the argument. The question I’m equally if not more concerned about is what events in history demonstrate the need to constrain the power of government? That’s the question that is deliberately ignored by so many who are more concerned with a given outcome then with the means of enabling that outcome. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2018, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/553 "2018-02-10T04:40:03Z")
That push-pull is always a difficult question, and different people will draw the line differently. Personally, if the government action is in service of the minority and disenfranchised, I think we’re in safer territory with respect to unfettered government power, than when the government is serving to keep minority groups at a disadvantage. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2018, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/554 "2018-02-10T04:43:24Z")
> [@Euphrosyne](#): > > What gives you the right to delineate the options among which the conscience of another American must choose? > > How about you select your actions on this matter from among the following choices: (1) MYOB; (2) MYOB; and (3) MYOB. Fucking ironic, this post is. What gives YOU the right? ---
**Author:** ![Euphrosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d9b06d/32.png) [@Euphrosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphrosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2018, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/555 "2018-02-10T04:43:49Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Well, now, hang on a minute here. Nobody in this thread is against the first amendment. I’m a big fan of it myself: it’s what protects people like me from people like you. I just don’t buy the tortured logic you’re employing to try to stretch the amendment so far that it covers this woman’s bigotry. “Not buying your argument” != “Not liking the first amendment.” “Protection from people like you.” I’m not sure what “protection” you need from me, Miller. Nor do I know by what criteria you suppose I would wish to threaten you. I don’t have the power to deny you _your expressly set forth in ink on paper_ Constitutional rights to free speech, to assemble peaceably, to bear arms, etc. The protection I need, and the protection that all people of faith in this country need is the protection of their First Amendment right to be free from coercion by the State in the free exercise of their religious beliefs. P.S. I have a gay brother. I love him the best of all. He is my best brother. ---
**Author:** ![Euphrosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d9b06d/32.png) [@Euphrosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphrosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2018, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/556 "2018-02-10T04:44:59Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Fucking ironic, this post is. > > What gives YOU the right? “The right” to . . . ? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2018, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/557 "2018-02-10T04:45:38Z")
> [@Euphrosyne](#): > > “Protection from people like you.” > > I’m not sure what “protection” you need from me, Miller. Nor do I know by what criteria you suppose I would wish to threaten you. > > I don’t have the power to deny you _your expressly set forth in ink on paper_ Constitutional rights to free speech, to assemble peaceably, to bear arms, etc. > > The protection I need, and the protection that all people of faith in this country need is the protection of their First Amendment right to be free from coercion by the State in the free exercise of their religious beliefs. > > P.S. I have a gay brother. I love him the best of all. He is my best brother. So, again, if you couldn’t afford to tithe and pay income taxes, you should be off the hook for paying income taxes? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2018, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/558 "2018-02-10T04:47:33Z")
> [@Euphrosyne](#): > > It is. > > (I’m not sure I understand where I wasn’t clear earlier . . . ?) So, I can’t get a cake with piped flowers all over it, a plain carrot cake with cream cheese icing, a bundt cake, a pineapple upside-down cake, a strawberry shortbread, or a red velvet cake for my gay wedding\* even if it doesn’t have decorations and embellishments suitable for a wedding? \*'Cause, almost, everybody has a cake at their wedding with their names in icing on it . . . apparently. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Euphrosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d9b06d/32.png) [@Euphrosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphrosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2018, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/559 "2018-02-10T04:52:53Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > That push-pull is always a difficult question, and different people will draw the line differently. > > Personally, if the government action is in service of the minority and disenfranchised, I think we’re in safer territory with respect to unfettered government power, than when the government is serving to keep minority groups at a disadvantage. * * * What about when the government fails to observe its own laws . . . the laws the Founders of this country put in place to protect the rights of the people of this country? Laws like the First Amendment to the Constitution, which provides that for freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and “Congress shall make no law . . . prohibiting the free exercise (of religion.)” . . . ? Action in service of the minority and the disenfranchised is laudable and praiseworthy, indeed. However, to advocate that our court system and our legislators simply do away with the First Amendment so as to better serve the needs of the minority and the disenfranchised . . . well, won’t that ultimately work to the disservice the minority and the disenfranchised? If we decide to dismantle some or all of the Constitution, is that really good for anyone in this country? I can hardly believe that it would be! ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2018, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/560 "2018-02-10T04:53:59Z")
Dismantle seems like quite the hyperbole. I was also answering a different question than this specific one, so trying to apply my words to the cake question won’t fit. While I have your attention, what about my tithing question? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372.md?page=29)