# California Judge Rules Making a Cake is "Artistic Expression" - Denies LGBT Discrimination Claim **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 7, 2018, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372 "2018-02-07T16:46:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 45
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/881 "2018-02-15T20:35:26Z")
> [@Euphrosyne](#): > > So. Say I lived near Kiryas Joel, NY and went across the _eruv_, and walked into one of the bakeries owned and operated by Yiddish-speaking Hasidim. And I told the proprietor: “I want to order a cake to celebrate my friend’s ordination as a Catholic priest. Can you please put a rosary made of those little silver BBs, and also can you make a nice crucifix on the end of it, with the figure of Christ on the cross? I’ll pick it up next Thursday.” > > If the proprietor told me, "Christ on a cake? No. We don’t make such a cake here. You go back to some \*goyim \*bakery where you live; they’ll help you. > > So. Am I now a second-class citizen? No one ordered a Christ cake, or even a gay cake. They ordered a catalogue cake. If you had walked in, said I would like a cake, and they tossed you out as being too goyim to shop there, maybe we could talk. Christ on a cake, how many times has that distinction already been made? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/882 "2018-02-15T20:35:42Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I don’t see any way that the fourteenth amendment would allow federal antidiscrimination law. In this case, though, it’s a state law that we’re talking about, so the distinction I earlier dismissed from someone (morgenstern?) as irrelevant suddenly becomes relevant: states don’t need constitutional authority for having antidiscrimination laws. The fourteenth amendment is still irrelevant to them. Nope. The Fourteenth, like almost all of the Constitution, is in fact incorporated against the states. It overrides any state law or state constitutional clause that conflicts with it. You’ve certainly learned con law quickly this afternoon. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/883 "2018-02-15T20:37:13Z")
> [@Euphrosyne](#): > > So. Say I lived near Kiryas Joel, NY and went across the _eruv_, and walked into one of the bakeries owned and operated by Yiddish-speaking Hasidim. And I told the proprietor: “I want to order a cake to celebrate my friend’s ordination as a Catholic priest. Can you please put a rosary made of those little silver BBs, and also can you make a nice crucifix on the end of it, with the figure of Christ on the cross? I’ll pick it up next Thursday.” > > If the proprietor told me, "Christ on a cake? No. We don’t make such a cake here. You go back to some \*goyim \*bakery where you live; they’ll help you. > > So. Am I now a second-class citizen? I have an important question which you’ve been asked repeatedly in many different ways: This Jew, does he have that rosary/crucifix cake sitting in his display case, ready to sell to Hasidic customers? Would he be happy to make that exact cake for you if you were Jewish, and only refuses to make it for you because you’re Catholic? If that’s the case, then yeah, he’s violating the law. But if he doesn’t make rosary crucifix cakes for anyone, then he’s in good shape. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/884 "2018-02-15T20:38:31Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Nope. The Fourteenth, like almost all of the Constitution, is in fact incorporated against the states. It overrides any state law or state constitutional clause that conflicts with it. > > You’ve certainly learned con law quickly this afternoon. :rolleyes: I haven’t learned con law; I was interested in a topic, I googled it, I read a sourced article on the topic. What you say in the first paragraph is technically correct but irrelevant, as the fourteenth amendment **restricts** state action, doesn’t **allow** legislation about private actions. You may disagree with this Supreme Court ruling–if you read the article, it mentions a blistering 19th-century dissent–but that’s the binding precedent. If you haven’t read the article, I recommend it. As I said, it’s excellent, and really interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/885 "2018-02-15T20:46:18Z")
> [@Euphrosyne](#): > > So. Say I lived near Kiryas Joel, NY and went across the _eruv_, and walked into one of the bakeries owned and operated by Yiddish-speaking Hasidim. And I told the proprietor: “I want to order a cake to celebrate my friend’s ordination as a Catholic priest. Can you please put a rosary made of those little silver BBs, and also can you make a nice crucifix on the end of it, with the figure of Christ on the cross? I’ll pick it up next Thursday.” > > If the proprietor told me, "Christ on a cake? No. We don’t make such a cake here. You go back to some \*goyim \*bakery where you live; they’ll help you. > > So. Am I now a second-class citizen? The baker does not need to provide anything they don’t want to. Period. Full stop. The thing here is if they provide something for one customer but deny the very same thing to another customer because “reasons”. So, if that baker provided cakes with rosaries on them and a crucifix with Jesus to another customer then they have to provide the same to you when you ask. If, on the other hand, this baker never offers Jesus cakes to anyone then no problem denying you one because they simply do not make those cakes. It’d be like asking Ford Motor Company to make you an Edsel. They can refuse to make you an Edsel because they do not make Edsels for anyone anymore. However, if they did make Edsels but refused to sell them to gay people then they violate the law. ---
**Author:** ![Euphrosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d9b06d/32.png) [@Euphrosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphrosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/886 "2018-02-15T20:48:31Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I have an important question which you’ve been asked repeatedly in many different ways: > > This Jew, does he have that rosary/crucifix cake sitting in his display case, ready to sell to Hasidic customers? Would he be happy to make that exact cake for you if you were Jewish, and only refuses to make it for you because you’re Catholic? > > If that’s the case, then yeah, he’s violating the law. But if he doesn’t make rosary crucifix cakes for anyone, then he’s in good shape. No. There are a just a few cakes on display. It’s a tiny shop. Some are birthday cakes, but could be made suitable for a wedding. . . . but I’ve heard he’s a master craftsman with decorating. Most people just order custom what they want. But whether or not he’s got a legal leg to stand on if he treats me in this way . . . does this experience render me a second-class citizen? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/887 "2018-02-15T20:54:06Z")
> [@Euphrosyne](#): > > But whether or not he’s got a legal leg to stand on if he treats me in this way . . . does this experience render me a second-class citizen? No. If he does not make those cakes for anyone then how is he treating you like a second class citizen? If you want to buy a blank cake from him, as did the women in this California case, and then put your own Jesus/message on it then he has to sell you the cake assuming it is one he offers to his Hasidic customers. If he refuses then yeah…you have a case against him. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/888 "2018-02-15T20:57:28Z")
> [@Euphrosyne](#): > > No. There are a just a few cakes on display. It’s a tiny shop. Some are birthday cakes, but could be made suitable for a wedding. . . . but I’ve heard he’s a master craftsman with decorating. Most people just order custom what they want. So if he doesn’t have it in his case, it’s not a relevant analogy. > [@](#): > > But whether or not he’s got a legal leg to stand on if he treats me in this way . . . does this experience render me a second-class citizen? I want to be clear about your question. Is this a fair paraphrase? **A baker refuses to make a cake that clearly communicates a specific message. He refuses to make a cake communicating that message, regardless of any traits of the customer. Am I a second class citizen?** If that’s a fair paraphrase, don’t be ridiculous, of course that doesn’t make you a second-class citizen. If it’s not fair, what did I get wrong? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/889 "2018-02-15T20:57:56Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > My understanding is that public accommodation rules from Title II of the Civil Rights Act are predicated on the commerce clause, not the 14th amendment. See [Katzenbach v. McClung](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katzenbach_v._McClung) > > Title II doesn’t mention sexual orientation, but it does start with “all persons”. And it makes sense if you keep in mind what the constitution does: It tells the feds: If it doesn’t say here that you can do it, you can’t. The 14th says nothing about federal regulation of private businesses. That’s why the commerce clause comes into play. The commerce clause does give authority to the feds to regulate businesses (even if folks can argue about whether it applies in this particular instance). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/890 "2018-02-15T21:01:31Z")
These terrible analogies are painful. I can’t believe I’m gonna help you out, but why not make your analogy better and more difficult? Instead of asking for him to make a cake that he doesn’t make, ask instead for him to make a traditional Passover unleavened cake. Wear your swastika armband in, and casually tell him you’re gonna smash it at an alt-right rally in order to protest Jewish domination of the US government. Can he kick you out? Now see, that’s a much better analogy. He’d bake the exact same cake for a Jewish customer, and he’d even bake it for you if you weren’t going to engage in an objectionable activity with it. The differences–that alt-right people are on average a million times scuzzier than gay people\*–are difficult to put into constitutional terms. - It’d be a billion, but y’know, Milo. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/891 "2018-02-15T21:09:37Z")
> [@Euphrosyne](#): > > No. There are a just a few cakes on display. It’s a tiny shop. Some are birthday cakes, but could be made suitable for a wedding. . . . but I’ve heard he’s a master craftsman with decorating. Most people just order custom what they want. > > But whether or not he’s got a legal leg to stand on if he treats me in this way . . . does this experience render me a second-class citizen? It does if he would sell that same cake, rosaries and crucifix and all , to a non-Catholic or non-Christian customer. I don’t think you are getting the distinction. It’s one thing to refuse to bake/decorate/sell a particular cake to anyone. It’s a different thing entirely to be willing to sell that cake with the rosaries to a Jewish customer who wants to celebrate his friend’s ordination but refuse to sell it to a Catholic customer. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/892 "2018-02-15T21:27:30Z")
> [@Euphrosyne](#): > > So. Say I lived near Kiryas Joel, NY and went across the _eruv_, and walked into one of the bakeries owned and operated by Yiddish-speaking Hasidim. And I told the proprietor: “I want to order a cake to celebrate my friend’s ordination as a Catholic priest. Can you please put a rosary made of those little silver BBs, and also can you make a nice crucifix on the end of it, with the figure of Christ on the cross? I’ll pick it up next Thursday.” > > If the proprietor told me, "Christ on a cake? No. We don’t make such a cake here. You go back to some \*goyim \*bakery where you live; they’ll help you. > > So. Am I now a second-class citizen? The fact that you made this analogy demonstrates that one of two things is true. 1. You don’t understand either the situation or the case under discussion and quite literally have no idea what the hell anyone in this thread is talking about. OR: 1. You actually realize that in the case in question the wedding cake wasn’t custom, and realize that this fact makes the position you are attempting to defend stupid and indefensible. Thus you overtly move the goalposts in an attempt to construct yourself a leg to stand on. There’s no excluded middle here, because anybody who understands the case cannot _possibly_ make this ‘analogy’ in good faith. The one glaring difference between your example and the case in question is the fact that destroys the judge’s argument: there was no “gay speech” being compelled because there was no gay speech even being _requested_. This of course obliterates the idea that this was a case of compelled speech, which the judge knows, so he had to assert that _all_ wedding cakes are speech because magic. Because he had no other avenue to push through this bullshit, and knew it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/893 "2018-02-15T21:33:16Z")
As an aside, I’m no expert on the Talmud, but I’m pretty sure the analogy shows ignorance of Jewish doctrine as well. Given the long history of Jews living among Gentiles, I’d find it highly unlikely that a Jewish baker would refuse to bake a cake for a christening, no matter what the symbols on it were. Someone who knows more about Hasidic culture may of course correct me. ---
**Author:** ![Euphrosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d9b06d/32.png) [@Euphrosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphrosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/894 "2018-02-15T21:46:55Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > These terrible analogies are painful. I can’t believe I’m gonna help you out, but why not make your analogy better and more difficult? > > Instead of asking for him to make a cake that he doesn’t make, ask instead for him to make a traditional Passover unleavened cake. Wear your swastika armband in, and casually tell him you’re gonna smash it at an alt-right rally in order to protest Jewish domination of the US government. Can he kick you out? > > Now see, that’s a much better analogy. He’d bake the exact same cake for a Jewish customer, and he’d even bake it for you if you weren’t going to engage in an objectionable activity with it. The differences–that alt-right people are on average a million times scuzzier than gay people\*–are difficult to put into constitutional terms. > > - It’d be a billion, but y’know, Milo. A new low for Left. ---
**Author:** ![Euphrosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d9b06d/32.png) [@Euphrosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphrosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/895 "2018-02-15T21:56:37Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > The fact that you made this analogy demonstrates that one of two things is true. > > 1. You don’t understand either the situation or the case under discussion and quite literally have no idea what the hell anyone in this thread is talking about. > > OR: > > 1. You actually realize that in the case in question the wedding cake wasn’t custom, and realize that this fact makes the position you are attempting to defend stupid and indefensible. Thus you overtly move the goalposts in an attempt to construct yourself a leg to stand on. > There’s no excluded middle here, because anybody who understands the case cannot _possibly_ make this ‘analogy’ in good faith. The one glaring difference between your example and the case in question is the fact that destroys the judge’s argument: there was no “gay speech” being compelled because there was no gay speech even being _requested_. This of course obliterates the idea that this was a case of compelled speech, which the judge knows, so he had to assert that _all_ wedding cakes are speech because magic. Because he had no other avenue to push through this bullshit, and knew it. You sound very angry. I suggest you have a nice cocktail and relax. And I haven’t been deliberately “moving goalposts.” I think a few posters are sticking strictly to the facts of this particular case; a number of others are speaking of hypothetical cases; others have been attempting to indoctrinate all of us what horse-hockey religious beliefs are, and especially religious beliefs that restrict us and others. I liked the hypothetical cases better. I liked the idea of developing something that might work on freedom of exercise grounds. So that’s what I’ve been talking about for quite some time. People who don’t care for exploring where this leads, and where that leads, and look I found a new one, and no, that just leads back to where we started, and wait, here’s a great one . . . well, they would be better off skipping my posts. ---
**Author:** ![Euphrosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d9b06d/32.png) [@Euphrosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphrosyne)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/896 "2018-02-15T22:03:03Z")
Oh, by the way, I’m about to say something unPC. So all the über-PC-manner would do well to find something else to read, unless you want to be annoyed. Ready? My former boss from many years ago said, “men think in straight lines. Women think in circles.” And I know I do. In fact, sometimes I think in spirals. Like a Slinky. And at other times in dots. I don’t worry that the dots don’t connect. They don’t have to. I just send them where I want them to go. All the women in my family are like this. Drives my brother out of his gourd. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/897 "2018-02-15T22:08:43Z")
> [@Euphrosyne](#): > > A new low for Left. This is continuing behavior that you were directed against continuing in the [note you received in post #853.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20790212&postcount=853) This is a warning for failure to follow moderator instructions. Do not personalize arguments in this fashion and heed moderation you receive. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/898 "2018-02-15T22:19:29Z")
> [@Euphrosyne](#): > > You sound very angry. I suggest you have a nice cocktail and relax. I don’t drink, and I’m not angry - I’m just pointing out in extremely clear terms how stupid and off-point your argument is. I recognize that many people interpret challenges as attacks, and presume that attacks must be made in anger. > [@Euphrosyne](#): > > And I haven’t been deliberately “moving goalposts.” I think a few posters are sticking strictly to the facts of this particular case; a number of others are speaking of hypothetical cases; others have been attempting to indoctrinate all of us what horse-hockey religious beliefs are, and especially religious beliefs that restrict us and others. > > I liked the hypothetical cases better. I liked the idea of developing something that might work on freedom of exercise grounds. That’s what’s known as “moving goalposts”. You know the position in question is indefensible, so you introduce a different one and pretend we’re still talking about the same thing. > [@Euphrosyne](#): > > So that’s what I’ve been talking about for quite some time. > > People who don’t care for exploring where this leads, and where that leads, and look I found a new one, and no, that just leads back to where we started, and wait, here’s a great one . . . well, they would be better off skipping my posts. Or by doing what they’re doing: answering your posts, and pointing out how the situation you’re discussing has nothing whatsoever to do with the situation at hand. A cake maker cannot be compelled to make a cake they would never make - a cake that’s not in their product line. In this way they’re exactly like other businesses: you can’t compel a tire company to make wedding cakes, and you can’t compel a random person off the street to build you a Ferrari. This is not disputed by anyone and is, fundamentally, extremely boring conversation. Perhaps the only interesting thing to note about it is that speech, religion, and equal rights law aren’t even at play here - if a product isn’t sold, it isn’t sold, period. Pretending that this situation - the situation where you ask for a rosary/crucifix cake and the owner says flatly, “Sorry, I don’t make cakes with rosaries and crucifixes on them. I also don’t do swastikas, Pepe the frog, or Ninja Turtles” is in any way comparable to “This is a cake I make, but not for _gays_.” is disingenuous at best. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/899 "2018-02-15T22:20:35Z")
> [@Euphrosyne](#): > > Oh, by the way, I’m about to say something unPC. > > So all the über-PC-manner would do well to find something else to read, unless you want to be annoyed. > > Ready? > > My former boss from many years ago said, “men think in straight lines. Women think in circles.” And I know I do. In fact, sometimes I think in spirals. > > Like a Slinky. And at other times in dots. I don’t worry that the dots don’t connect. They don’t have to. I just send them where I want them to go. > > All the women in my family are like this. Drives my brother out of his gourd. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2018, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372/900 "2018-02-15T22:30:47Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You have written a poem about weddings. You will print that poem to anyone for a fee. I want you to print me a copy of that poem to use in my gay wedding. You refuse, based on you not wanting to use your artistic expression for something you disapprove of. > > There was nothing new or unique being asked for in this cake. There was no fleshing out. There was not asking the baker to help with layout or other artistic elements. Sure, which is why, on the whole, I disagree with this decision. But I see it more as a “there’s a difficult line to draw and the world is complex and, from the information I have, I think the judge got this one wrong, but I’m not an expert” than “OMG this is the first step to a theocracy” or “as soon as Alabama hears about this it will be legal to ban gay people from restaurants”, if you see the distinction I’m making. (Edited to add: granted, that’s easy for me to say as a married straight guy…) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372.md?page=44) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-judge-rules-making-a-cake-is-artistic-expression-denies-lgbt-discrimination-claim/808372.md?page=46)