# California National Guard Collecting Enlistment Bonuses **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 25, 2016, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-national-guard-collecting-enlistment-bonuses/769711 "2016-10-25T18:54:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-national-guard-collecting-enlistment-bonuses/769711/21 "2016-10-26T13:57:38Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > If you have a reference, I’d want to look at the details before giving an opinion on that case. On general principle, yes, I agree it’s wrong to create an incentive structure that penalizes soldiers for getting promoted. On the other hand, if the DoD is issuing bonuses requiring soldiers to complete certain training at a certain rank, then a soldier close to promotion should know they will soon become ineligible for that bonus. > > If true, that’s a dumb regulation, and I think a law should be passed to fix it. But regs are regs. Now, if the recruiters somehow concealed the eligibility requirements, that’s a whole different situation. [Found it.](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/25/us/national-guard-bonuses-california.html) Faulty memory. > [@](#): > > In another instance, Mr. Van Meter was given a $10,000 re-enlistment bonus because his career field — biomedical repair — was facing a shortage of workers. Auditors later decided that he had not fulfilled his contract because a short time later, the National Guard deployed him to Kosovo as a supply manager. > > “It’s not like you get a choice in the military,” Mr. Van Meter said. “They tell you what to do, and you do it, or you are thrown in jail.” > > During a third enlistment, auditors found, Mr. Van Meter did not fulfill his contract because he became an officer before his enlistment was complete. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-national-guard-collecting-enlistment-bonuses/769711/22 "2016-10-26T14:13:58Z")
I don’t think the DoD/Pentagon has ever been audited. Certainly there can be some CPAs with top level security clearance who can start digging around the books? ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-national-guard-collecting-enlistment-bonuses/769711/23 "2016-10-26T14:39:19Z")
[And it’s “suspended.”](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/10/26/carter-suspends-pentagon-s-demand-return-cash-bonuses-to-california-soldiers.html) ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-national-guard-collecting-enlistment-bonuses/769711/24 "2016-10-26T14:55:16Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [Found it.](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/25/us/national-guard-bonuses-california.html) Faulty memory. OK. Well, if you’re asking for my opinion, there are 2 different cases there. Case #1 - not the soldier’s fault, and the situation is outrageous. He was unable to complete his contract because he was given conflicting orders. He was treated unfairly. Case #2 - this situation is on him. In this case, he became an officer. He made a conscious, optional career move that he knew involved ending his enlistment and changing MOS. How can you expect to keep a critical MOS enlistment bonus when you end your enlistment early and change MOS? That’s all on him, unless he was defrauded into thinking this was OK. That being said, I’m picking up lots bits and pieces of news articles that suggest recruiters were fraudulently submitting enlistees for bonus programs. And I know the Army is uniquely famous for creating administrative fuckups. But I suspect there are also cases where people either didn’t read their contracts, or forgot details of the terms, or convinced themselves that they were honoring the spirit of the agreement by enhancing their skills. Edited to add: Well, no reason for me to guess about it. Here are some numbers from your cite: > [@](#): > > “We did uncover about 100 people that were involved in outright fraud,” said Maj. Gen. Matthew P. Beevers, the deputy adjutant general of the California National Guard. **“The challenge now is that the vast majority of the soldiers involved got improper bonuses because they relied, to their detriment, on people they thought knew what they were doing.”** (bolding mine) ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-national-guard-collecting-enlistment-bonuses/769711/25 "2016-10-26T15:19:45Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > But not interest. The OP suggests that demands for interest are being made. Or is it only interest payable /after/ the demand has been made? The idea is that the recipient has had the use of the funds starting from the time the funds were transferred, and the government has likewise been denied the use of the funds for that entire time as well - so interest is owed dating back to the time of the transfer. A long time ago I was found to have been underpaid due to a clerical error. Eventually I received the missing backpay, along with interest dating back to the date of the error (rather than to the date of _discovery_ of the error). Same principle would apply to the present situation. None of which really matters, since nobody should be trying to take these bonuses back from the servicemembers. Maybe if it had only been a day or two after disbursement, but ten years later? In most cases financial commitments have already been made because of that disbursement, and in all the cases people altered the course of their lives by electing to continue serving (perhaps even getting wounded in combat) because of it. I don’t think the collection effort is any sort of attempt to punish them, but it surely reflects a callous disregard for the mayhem that is being inflicted on these people’s lives. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-national-guard-collecting-enlistment-bonuses/769711/26 "2016-10-26T16:12:45Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Thanks, **Ravenman** , > So am I correct that it’s still only a $95 problem that accounting makes look like $400? > So in the original article, there is not \*actually \*trillions missing? > [@ivylass](#): > > I don’t think the DoD/Pentagon has ever been audited. Certainly there can be some CPAs with top level security clearance who can start digging around the books? Just to be brief with this hijack: yes, it is incorrect that the Pentagon has “lost” or is “missing” large amounts of taxpayer money. It is correct that they cannot reconcile trillions of dollars of financial entries. And the Pentagon is audited basically every year (there have been exceptions) for quite some time, but those audits have never concluded with a clean opinion. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-national-guard-collecting-enlistment-bonuses/769711/27 "2016-10-26T17:59:20Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > I feel certain that the paperwork the recruit signed was written in indecipherable legalese. Even if they read it, they _probably_ wouldn’t understand it. They probably assumed that recruiter acted in good faith. > > I am all for going after corrupt recruiters, but the recruits should be left alone. I agree. President Obama needs to act on this. Good faith monies should be excused. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-national-guard-collecting-enlistment-bonuses/769711/28 "2016-10-26T18:25:23Z")
and he did: > **[Carter suspends bonus clawbacks for California National Guard members | CNN...](https://www.cnn.com/2016/10/26/politics/carter-suspends-bonus-clawbacks-california-national-guard-members/index.html)** > > Secretary of Defense Ash Carter said Wednesday he is suspending "all efforts to collect reimbursement" from improperly awarded enlistment bonuses given to some members of the California National Guard, following outrage from veterans and their... \* Secretary of Defense Ash Carter said Wednesday he is suspending “all efforts to collect reimbursement” from improperly awarded enlistment bonuses given to some members of the California National Guard, following outrage from veterans and their families over attempts to recover the money 10 years after it was disbursed. “I have ordered the Defense Finance and Accounting Service to suspend all efforts to collect reimbursement from affected California National Guard members, effective as soon as is practical,” Carter said in a statement, adding this suspension will continue until “I am satisfied that our process is working effectively.”\* That came from a Democratic Executive. Meanwhile the GOP held congress, the dudes who claim they “support the troops” have done nothing. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-national-guard-collecting-enlistment-bonuses/769711/29 "2016-10-26T18:31:51Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Just to be brief with this hijack: yes, it is incorrect that the Pentagon has “lost” or is “missing” large amounts of taxpayer money. It is correct that they cannot reconcile trillions of dollars of financial entries. > > And the Pentagon is audited basically every year (there have been exceptions) for quite some time, but those audits have never concluded with a clean opinion. Thank you. Confusion cleared. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-national-guard-collecting-enlistment-bonuses/769711/30 "2016-10-26T18:32:00Z")
I don’t understand what they mean by suspending efforts to recover the reenlistment bonuses? I get the impression the money is still owed? What about families that are already making monthly payments? Or people that mortgaged their house to pay back all the money? This decision seems to raise even more questions. Leaving families unsure what will happen next. I’m glad Defense Secretary Ash Carter is getting involved. But what does this mean? . Does it make sense to you? [https://www.google.com/amp/www.nbcnews.com/news/military/amp/defense-secretary-ash-carter-outraged-over-reenlistment-bonus-scandal-n673071?client=ms-android-motorola](https://www.google.com/amp/www.nbcnews.com/news/military/amp/defense-secretary-ash-carter-outraged-over-reenlistment-bonus-scandal-n673071?client=ms-android-motorola) ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-national-guard-collecting-enlistment-bonuses/769711/31 "2016-10-26T18:36:58Z")
Frankly, the damage done to morale, and to the internal and external perception of the military, is surely greater than any amount of benefit that the military could gain by recouping the money. Just let them keep it. ---
**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2016, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-national-guard-collecting-enlistment-bonuses/769711/32 "2016-10-26T22:00:05Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > I don’t think the DoD/Pentagon has ever been audited. Certainly there can be some CPAs with top level security clearance who can start digging around the books? DoD is audited constantly. There is a Defense Audit Agency that does nothing but. DoD has never _passed_ an audit. That is where the headlines are. Given the nature of their work, I doubt they ever will. Just too many moving parts and external events. ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-national-guard-collecting-enlistment-bonuses/769711/33 "2016-10-27T00:26:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > … > > That came from a Democratic Executive. Meanwhile the GOP held congress, the dudes who claim they “support the troops” have done nothing. Obama appears to have been behind the curve on this one. Yesterday (Tuesday Oct 25) [LA Times reports](http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-calif-guard-bonus-20161025-snap-story.html) White House spokesman Josh Earnest saying: > [@](#): > > "We’re not going to nickel-and-dime them when they get back, and we’re not going to hold service members responsible unfairly for unethical conduct or fraud perpetrated by someone else,” Earnest said. > > But he said **the president was not yet backing bipartisan calls in Congress to fully forgive the overpayments** of an estimated $70 million total that recruiters awarded to meet their enlistment quotas. > > “I don’t think he’s prepared to go that far at this point," Earnest said, adding that “it might not be necessary to ensure fairness.” **bolding** and enlargement mine Bipartisan support to end the collection efforts and forgive the overpayments preceded the executive branch getting on board with a suspension of collections. From Monday Oct 24: [Bradenton (FL) Herald](http://www.bradenton.com/news/nation-world/national/article110279337.html): > [@](#): > > “I guess it’s always the private that gets beat up,” said Rep. John Garamendi, D-Walnut Grove. [Politico](http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/kevin-mccarthy-nancy-pelosi-california-soldiers-overpaid-230244)House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy (R-CA) - > [@](#): > > efforts to recoup the money (are) "disgraceful. > … > Speaker Paul Ryan’s (R-WI) spokeswoman said that House GOP lawmakers have been working on the issue for months and it’s possible Congress may take legislative action during the lame duck session. > … > Democratic Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) called for a legislative fix as soon as Congress returns to Washington after the election. > > “The overpayment of enlistment signing bonuses by the Department of Defense should not be the responsibility of our servicemembers or veterans to pay back, years after the fact,” Pelosi said in a statement. > > Rep. Adam Schiff (D-Calif.),called the current situation “unacceptable” and asked guard leaders to immediately halt any more collections. “These soldiers enlisted during the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and frequently served overseas, and we owe them a debt that we can never repay, but we can start by ensuring they are not subject to tax liens or wage garnishments based on the errors of others,” Schiff said in statement Perhaps this will be one issue that politicians on both sides of the aisle can agree to take action on in a timely manner. Would be nice to remind us all that is is _possible_ for the parties to work together. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-national-guard-collecting-enlistment-bonuses/769711/34 "2016-10-27T00:50:13Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I don’t understand what they mean by suspending efforts to recover the reenlistment bonuses? As I can best make of it, he means they will stop the action of assessing and collecting, pending proper passage of actual legislation or regulation that legally voids the penalty and cleans the troops’ records. It may not be in his power to do so permanently with a stroke of the pen (a successor can overrule him and that may be as soon as next January). Plus, more coolly, there are bound to be some fellows out there who \*did \*take advantage knowingly and wrongfully, and you may want to find a way to still nail _them_ rather than do blanket relief. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-national-guard-collecting-enlistment-bonuses/769711/35 "2016-10-27T01:25:12Z")
Recouping pay made in error is normal inside the military. While there’s a waiver process, IME, the bean counters tend to lean towards never approving one unless the chain of command really gets involved. (This is big enough even the CANG Adjutant General probably didn’t have enough pull. I, like the NBC story, question prioritization given to taking care of their SMs.) I’ve seen the waver process work for a group of about 30 that were notified of collections on the same issue. The chain got some cleared in normal admin processes based on slightly different situations that, by regulation, shouldn’t have triggered the recoupment. The remainder all processed individual waivers where major the justification was effectively approved in bulk. “Okay we’re buying that argument…put it in every single Soldier’s request for waiver.” It was still a case by case determination with some differences between individuals. SECDEF effectively kicked it back to the regular process for individual waivers and suspended payments until they work through the whole thing. Regulation isn’t law but can be based on law. The DOD can’t just ignore the law piece and has to justify the rest to audit and congressional oversight even if it’s in their power. Ace’s link points to Sec. Ash specifically referencing doing everything they can within the current law. Suspending payments is about the best that can be done on short notice without risking being in violation of the law. It’s a pretty big deal. Now there’s time to unscrew the cluster without taking yet more money from these troops. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-national-guard-collecting-enlistment-bonuses/769711/36 "2016-10-27T03:51:18Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > The idea is that the recipient has had the use of the funds starting from the time the funds were transferred, and the government has likewise been denied the use of the funds for that entire time as well - so interest is owed dating back to the time of the transfer. > > A long time ago I was found to have been underpaid due to a clerical error. Eventually I received the missing backpay, along with interest dating back to the date of the error (rather than to the date of _discovery_ of the error). Same principle would apply to the present situation. > > None of which really matters, They made a mistake and underpay, they pay you resaonable interest at the time of their own choosing. They make a mistake and overpay, they don’t have pay intereset. You make a mistake and underclaim, you don’t have to pay interest. You make a mistake and overclaim, and perhaps you have to pay interest – unless it was their mistake for accepting the overclaim. When they make a “mistake” and trap you into paying interest later, that’s usury, and it’s imoral and sinful in semitic religions. You fraudulently overclaim, they claim damage. > [@](#): > > since nobody should be trying to take these bonuses back from the servicemembers There’s a rule for that too: all debts are forgiven after a reasonable interval. The military isn’t covered by consumer debt regulations, but I agree with the moral imperative. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2016, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-national-guard-collecting-enlistment-bonuses/769711/37 "2016-10-27T06:17:46Z")
The military pay system is full of errors and mispays. It seems I could never make it 2 months without them deciding I was overpaid and deducting it from my salary. They’re always very quick to take money from you and very slow to resolve underpays. In my opinion the only way the system is going to improve is if they have to eat their mistakes. I’m sorry but if the California Guard made the mistake it should be the one to take the hit not the soldiers who took what was offered them. Those recruiters, as authorized agents of the government, created a debt on the United States/California by signing the contract. Any business who tried this crap would get laughed out of court and get legal fees awarded against them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-national-guard-collecting-enlistment-bonuses/769711.md?page=1)