# California primary election **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 14, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217 "2016-04-14T20:17:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/181 "2016-06-06T22:59:42Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > The whole ‘responsibility’ debate is moot. Trump is _accountable_ for it because he espoused doing exactly the same thing as the protesters have done at his rallies. He personally said he would like to punch someone in the mouth and that he would pay the legal bills of those who committed violence on people who protested him. That is beyond doubt; the quotes exist and I can cite them if necessary, though I would think that principals in this discussion already accept that. He was inciting his followers to violence, and there was a violent response on the opposing side. > > The anti-Trump protesters are _responsible_ for the actual events of violence against Trump supporters, and as such those individuals’ actions are to be deplored and prosecuted. But to claim that that violence exists in a vacuum and thus to pass over Trump’s own accountability is false. (You could also quite easily make the argument that Bernie is accountable for his laggardness in denouncing the protesters.) How are you delineating between being responsible and being accountable? Saying something is not remotely the same as actually doing those things. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/182 "2016-06-06T23:09:03Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I see what you’re saying I think. It’s not really germane to the idea of responsibility for violence - more of an accurate paraphrase I suppose. It’s germane as to why that last sentence matters whether it’s included or not. I, personally, don’t think it matters in terms of so-called 'fighting words", but let’s be rigorously accurate in what was said so that folks can judge for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/183 "2016-06-06T23:19:41Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > How are you delineating between being responsible and being accountable? > > Saying something is not remotely the same as actually doing those things. [http://www.gmarkhardy.com/docs/NRA-0507%20Accountability%20101.pdf](http://www.gmarkhardy.com/docs/NRA-0507%20Accountability%20101.pdf) > [@](#): > > Responsibility relates to one’s duty or mission. It is an obligation to answer for actions, to ensure that a task is accomplished. A “responsible” individual is one who gets the job done. > … > Accountability is being liable for an outcome. It is not just about whether the job gets done, but also how it gets done. The protesters are responsible for the actual violence committed. Trump is accountable for the climate which helped to promote that violence. (This is by no means saying that he is the only one accountable.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/184 "2016-06-06T23:27:58Z")
Nah, its those Mexicans who pour over the border to become welfare queens. They just cover it up by doing stoop labor for shit wages. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/185 "2016-06-06T23:37:33Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > The protesters are responsible for the actual violence committed. Trump is accountable for the climate which helped to promote that violence. (This is by no means saying that he is the only one accountable.) Ok. So if \*arguendo \*Trump is accountable for the climate which helped promote that violence, what is the way in which the liability is measured? In other words, how is he supposed to be held accountable? Bob seems to think it’d be acceptable to assassinate Trump. Should it be okay to prevent Trump from speaking? Should it be okay for folks to assault Trump supporters? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/186 "2016-06-07T01:27:37Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > The only words that for me would garner some share of responsibility would be words that would sound like a real threat of imminent violence. Otherwise, no. > > If some Hitler-ish person were saying “And now let’s round up the Jews!” and this person had the capability of making that happen, then maybe that would qualify as a real threat of imminent violence. I don’t think it would, but maybe. Well I think fostering an atmosphere of animosity and hatred makes you somewhat responsible for what results. Think it’s odd to give him a total pass, frankly. Guess we’ll just have to disagree on that. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/187 "2016-06-07T02:04:38Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Ok. So if \*arguendo \*Trump is accountable for the climate which helped promote that violence, what is the way in which the liability is measured? In other words, how is he supposed to be held accountable? Bob seems to think it’d be acceptable to assassinate Trump. Should it be okay to prevent Trump from speaking? Should it be okay for folks to assault Trump supporters? None of the above. As far as being held accountable, the only way in his case would probably be by people who change their votes away from him. I guess there’s a small chance that someone could bring a civil action against him for it, but that’s unlikely. If it were something covered by the UCMJ, he would most definitely be held accountable. The military is where the distinction arises and is taught most clearly. It’s one of the first concepts of leadership. Re: Bob, I’m pretty sure he wasn’t being serious about that, but it’s really more for him to say. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/188 "2016-06-07T02:38:17Z")
Ok - then assaulting Trump is not an acceptable way to hold Trump accountable for his protected speech. Do you agree with that? Like I said, Bob and elucidator disagree with that. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/189 "2016-06-07T02:43:37Z")
I didnt see elucidator say that. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/190 "2016-06-07T02:44:19Z")
Hm… Actually assaulting Trump… Not his supporters, but the man himself… No, no, as much fun as it sounds, get thee behind me Satan. “I’ve got a shoe-horn, the kind with teeth. People should not get beat up for stating their beliefs. I’ve got a shoe-horn, the kind with teeth, so I know there’s such a thing.” ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/191 "2016-06-07T03:14:50Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I didnt see elucidator say that. There is some crazy parsing because folks are having trouble trying to avoid blaming the victim. In any event, elucidator said Trump bears some responsibility for assaults perpetrated against his supporters. What is the way to hold Trump accountable for his alleged responsibility? If the response to assaults is to point out Trump’s alleged responsibility it seems like the logical conclusion to view the assaults favorably. Dress proactively, get raped. Go to a trump rally, get assaulted. These are analogous. Being consistent means being against or okay with both. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/192 "2016-06-07T03:18:57Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I didnt see elucidator say that. I have the power to cloud minds. Well, _my_ mind, mostly, but still! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/193 "2016-06-07T03:48:06Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Dress proactively, get raped. Go to a trump rally, get assaulted. These are analogous. Being consistent means being against or okay with both. Emphasis added. Assume you mean “provocatively”. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/194 "2016-06-07T03:51:26Z")
I blame Autocorrect. The only appropriate response would be to throw eggs at me ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/195 "2016-06-07T05:19:29Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I blame Autocorrect. The only appropriate response would be to throw eggs at me Well, you are responsible. Or accountable, Or something. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/196 "2016-06-07T06:00:41Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Ok - then assaulting Trump is not an acceptable way to hold Trump accountable for his protected speech. Do you agree with that? Absolutely not acceptable. So yes, I agree. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/197 "2016-06-07T06:11:22Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > There is some crazy parsing because folks are having trouble trying to avoid blaming the victim. In any event, elucidator said Trump bears some responsibility for assaults perpetrated against his supporters. > What is the way to hold Trump accountable for his alleged responsibility? If the response to assaults is to point out Trump’s alleged responsibility it seems like the logical conclusion to view the assaults favorably. > > Dress proactively, get raped. Go to a trump rally, get assaulted. These are analogous. Being consistent means being against or okay with both. So it’s almost like you are standing up for rape victims here. Bravo sir. You are a true hero. Or maybe you’re just analogous to a hero. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/198 "2016-06-07T13:28:37Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Well I think fostering an atmosphere of animosity and hatred makes you somewhat responsible for what results. Think it’s odd to give him a total pass, frankly. Guess we’ll just have to disagree on that. I don’t give him a pass for the behavior. I think it makes him a horrible, nasty, brutish person who should be shunned and rejected. I just don’t think he, or his supporters, should be injured or threatened or struck or papercut over it. Yelled at? Sure. Sneered at, jeered at, or even leered at? You bet. But touched? No. That’s beyond what his words can be responsible for causing. In a lot of ways, I know I’m suggesting an artificial line. Yelling at someone is an act. Touching them with my pinkie finger is an act. Hitting them with a club is an act. But we do distinguish between hateful words and physical violence. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/199 "2016-06-07T13:35:39Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > In a lot of ways, I know I’m suggesting an artificial line. Yelling at someone is an act. Touching them with my pinkie finger is an act. Hitting them with a club is an act. But we do distinguish between hateful words and physical violence. I guess some folks never heard: Sticks and stones can break my bones, but names can never hurt me. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2016, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/200 "2016-06-07T13:39:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I guess some folks never heard: Sticks and stones can break my bones, but names can never hurt me. Many people reject that because, of course, it’s a bunch of hooey. Words are extremely powerful, and the acts a words can represent even more so. Words can be violent, words can mean destruction and death. Still, we have set up this dichotomy, and I think on the whole we have to have it because we’d otherwise risk escalating every schoolyard taunt into a justifiable butt kicking. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217.md?page=11)