# California primary election **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 14, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217 "2016-04-14T20:17:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/101 "2016-06-06T17:03:11Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > **Bob** , the nation always ceases to exist every time it changes. I’m sending you a golfing glove, a bit sandy because that’s where I spent most of my golfing time. Still, useful for getting a good grip. With all due respect and unwavering affection…you need it. I appreciate the concern but Trump is a threat unlike any the nation has seen since the Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/102 "2016-06-06T17:06:23Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > He’d have no trouble declaring martial law and suspending the Constitution and declaring himself dictator for life. Even as much as Presidents Bush and Obama have attempted to increase the powers of the Executive, and the Congress has failed to check them, how would this even work? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/103 "2016-06-06T17:07:41Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You can hardly blame someone for quailing before the prospect of taking on such a rhetorical and analytical juggernaut such as yourself! Only a foolish or egotistical person would have such self-regard! So, here I go… Always the sugar coating first! > [@](#): > > You’re question is stilted and constructed in such a way as to give maximum possible advantage to one issue and virtually demands we ignore any nuance or alternatives. It places the weight of the question entirely to one aspect, even demands that we give but one answer, one example of a statement that justifies violence. Does that mean we cannot consider the _overall_ effect of his rhetoric? Is it unfair to say that, taken in the round and as a whole, his stated positions are offensive? The word “quotes” is plural, _amigo_. Maybe you missed that. But now that I have cleared that up for you, knock yourself out. Nuance the shit out of us! Do whatever you have to do to convince us, with quotations, that thuggery (your word, remember) is in some way justified. > [@](#): > > Even given our commitment to free speech, and the fact that such a commitment can be used to protect offensive and repulsive opinion…does he not have some responsibility? Can he not be held accountable for what he _didn’t_ say? Liike, just for instance, “My remarks about the judge were patently racist and offensive, and I withdraw those remarks and replace them with an abject apology.”. That’s what he should have said, that’s what he sure as fuck _didn’t_ say! > > You didn’t ask a fair question, but feel entitled to a fair answer? No fair! The answer is “no” to the first part, and there was nothing “unfair” about the question. And no, I don’t hold people responsible for things they don’t say. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/104 "2016-06-06T17:08:34Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Normally, I’m a non-violent kind of guy. With Trump, it alters the scales for me. It’s always been, and always will be, that it’s the times when someone pisses you off the most that are the times you most need a well-developed sense of ethics. It’s easy to be ethical when nothing is on the line. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/105 "2016-06-06T17:09:53Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > You may think so, but he has already telegraphed his contempt for the judicial branch in his racist rant about a judge. He’d have no trouble declaring martial law and suspending the Constitution and declaring himself dictator for life. Just like Bush was going to do right? > [@BobLibDem](#): > > No. I’m saying Trump must be defeated by any means necessary. Would assassinating him be okay with you? How about barring him from running for office? Eliminating his name from the ballot? Manipulating election results? I take solace in the fact that your views are not representative of your comrades on the left. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/106 "2016-06-06T17:10:00Z")
I voted against Nixon in '68. _Anno horribilis_. Regretably, to do that I had to vote _for_ Humphrey, but so it goes. My reaction to Nixon winning was entirely appropriate, I didn’t draw a sober breath for a week. Because my beloved country was doomed. And yet, here we are. You don’t need a lot of faith, **Bob** , just a little. But you _do_ need it. Peace. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/107 "2016-06-06T17:12:48Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Even given our commitment to free speech, and the fact that such a commitment can be used to protect offensive and repulsive opinion…does he not have some responsibility? Can he not be held accountable for what he _didn’t_ say? Liike, just for instance, “My remarks about the judge were patently racist and offensive, and I withdraw those remarks and replace them with an abject apology.”. That’s what he should have said, that’s what he sure as fuck _didn’t_ say! And to you, an acceptable way to hold Trump accountable, is to assault other people who support him. That makes a lot of sense! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/108 "2016-06-06T17:17:57Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Always the sugar coating first!.. Well, of course! Changing minds is often a question of seduction more than reason. > [@](#): > > …Do whatever you have to do to convince us, with quotations, that thuggery (your word, remember) is in some way justified… Never said it was justified. I much prefer that the words that come out of my mouth originate there, if that’s OK with you. I will say that it is “understandable” if that is not taken to mean “justifiable”. > [@](#): > > …The answer is “no” to the first part, and there was nothing “unfair” about the question. And no, I don’t hold people responsible for things they don’t say. If he could have reduced the threat of violence by opening his pie-intake orifice…shouldn’t he? Really, no? Well, OK. Duly noted. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/109 "2016-06-06T17:21:03Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > And to you, an acceptable way to hold Trump accountable, is to assault other people who support him. That makes a lot of sense! I will argue with **John** and \*\*Bob \*\*because I respect their intelligence and have faith in their honesty. You and I have no basis for discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/110 "2016-06-06T17:21:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I voted against Nixon in '68. _Anno horribilis_. Regretably, to do that I had to vote _for_ Humphrey, but so it goes. My reaction to Nixon winning was entirely appropriate, I didn’t draw a sober breath for a week. Because my beloved country was doomed. > > And yet, here we are. You don’t need a lot of faith, **Bob** , just a little. But you _do_ need it. Peace. Vietnam or not, Humphrey actually had a sterling record and I’d have been delighted to vote for hi. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/111 "2016-06-06T17:26:22Z")
There was no “not Viet Nam”. It permeated the atmosphere, the stench was everywhere, it soaked into your clothes and spoiled your cornflakes. Was HHH a good man? Yes. Did he make an awful mistake? Yes. Is that enough, to say it was a mistake? Your call. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/112 "2016-06-06T17:27:23Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Just like Bush was going to do right? > > Would assassinating him be okay with you? How about barring him from running for office? Eliminating his name from the ballot? Manipulating election results? > > I take solace in the fact that your views are not representative of your comrades on the left. Nobody said Bush was going to appoint himself dictator, he did not openly advocate for racism (quite the contrary, to his credit, he stressed that the US was not at war with Islam). I of course would not assassinate Trump, but if someone did and I was selected for the jury, I’d have to excuse myself on grounds of being unable to vote for conviction. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/113 "2016-06-06T17:32:36Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, of course! Changing minds is often a question of seduction more than reason. And you’re so good at that! > [@](#): > > Never said it was justified. I much prefer that the words that come out of my mouth originate there, if that’s OK with you. I will say that it is “understandable” if that is not taken to mean “justifiable”. A point of symantic order, then. You said he shared some responsibility for the violence, which means the thugs are not fully responsible. If they are not fully responsible then they have some justification. How could it be otherwise without “responsibility” being meaningless? If there is no justification for the violence, then the perps have full responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/114 "2016-06-06T17:33:40Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Nobody said Bush was going to appoint himself dictator Of course they did. Probably some on this board, but if not, on plenty of other places online. People get really stupid sometimes. Some people are born that way, but some just cultivate it during election years. The best way to combat a terrifying demagogue is by showing him to be ridiculous and beating him in the polls. This is doable. Killing him, harming him, beating his supporters, that isn’t who I am, and it’s not what I support. You may want to fight fire with fire. I’ll choose an extinguisher. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/115 "2016-06-06T17:35:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > A point of symantic order, then. You said he shared some responsibility for the violence, which means the thugs are not fully responsible. If they are not fully responsible then they have some justification. How could it be otherwise without “responsibility” being meaningless? > > If there is no justification for the violence, then the perps have full responsibility. Trump had it coming. Did you see how he was dressed, in that skimpy combover? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/116 "2016-06-06T17:42:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > …A point of symantic order, then. You said he shared some responsibility for the violence, which means the thugs are not fully responsible. If they are not fully responsible then they have some justification. How could it be otherwise without “responsibility” being meaningless? > > If there is no justification for the violence, then the perps have full responsibility. If there a difference between “fully” responsible and “exclusively” responsible? I think so, apparently you do not. Are you suggesting that the response would have been the same, regardless of anything Trump might have said, or not said? Well, OK. Duly noted. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/117 "2016-06-06T17:45:23Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If there is no justification for the violence, then the perps have full responsibility. And the converse, also: If the perps have full responsibility, then there is no justification from an outside source. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/118 "2016-06-06T17:47:48Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Normally, I’m a non-violent kind of guy. With Trump, it alters the scales for me. Imagine you were in Germany in the 1930s when Hitler was just starting to rise to power. Suppose the Germans had busted some chops at the early Hitler rallies? How many lives could have been saved if Hitler’s lies had been exposed and his followers dissuaded from supporting him by whatever means necessary? Trump is the most dangerous nominee in American history. I think very raucous protesting at his events and minor things like egg throwing are certainly warranted in Trump’s case. Under normal circumstances, yes I may disagree with what you say but defend your right to say it. In Trump’s case, no. Interesting but not surprising. Trump isn’t even that radical. It’s amazing how tenuous support for liberty really is. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/119 "2016-06-06T17:49:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Jumping up and down and yelling that Trump is a racist asshole is justified on the grounds that he is a racist asshole. Or is pretending to be one for some electoral advantage. But that only covers vocal opposition, which is equally protected under free speech. Violence is _not_ a form of speech, it is violence, and not permissible. > > Has Trump deliberately stoked racial animus? Yes. Does that make violent protest at his rallies more likely? Duh. Does that mean he bears _some_ responsibility for the violence he has provoked? Gee, I dunno, that’s a tough one, what do you think? No. I don’t think it does. Just like dressing as a “ho” doesn’t justify rape. But I’m not the victim blaming type. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/120 "2016-06-06T17:50:24Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > If there a difference between “fully” responsible and “exclusively” responsible? I think so, apparently you do not. Are you suggesting that the response would have been the same, regardless of anything Trump might have said, or not said? Well, OK. Duly noted. Since I haven’t suggested that, no I am not suggesting it. If the words were such that a reasonable person could expect to feel in imminent threat of harm, then no problem. For example: “Get out of my way, or I’ll shoot you where you stand [as he reaches into his coat pocket]”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217.md?page=7)