# California primary election **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 14, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217 "2016-04-14T20:17:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/141 "2016-06-06T19:14:04Z")
**JS** , I cannot reasonably address your question of comparing sexual assault to this political question. For personal reasons, I cannot even think about it without getting upset. Nothing to do with my respect for your opinions or positions, but that button pressed sets me off. Wouldn’t bring it up but don’t want you to think I’m ignoring your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/142 "2016-06-06T19:19:10Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The concept of “fighting words” is not remotely limited to direct threats while reaching in to your coat pocket. Saying someone and/or their parents are rapists and drug dealers sound like fighting words to me. There has to be something immediate. > [@elucidator](#): > > **JS** , I cannot reasonably address your question of comparing sexual assault to this political question. For personal reasons, I cannot even think about it without getting upset. Nothing to do with my respect for your opinions or positions, but that button pressed sets me off. Wouldn’t bring it up but don’t want you to think I’m ignoring your opinion. Thanks. I accept that. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/143 "2016-06-06T19:29:55Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > There has to be something immediate. So a riot breaking out just after he said it would be on Trump but a violent protest the following week he’s scott free? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/144 "2016-06-06T19:35:43Z")
_None_ of it is good, it is all tragic. How much responsibility does Trump bear? Just as I said, I dunno. But some. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/145 "2016-06-06T19:36:09Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So a riot breaking out just after he said it would be on Trump but a violent protest the following week is no good? What do you mean by “okay”? The fighting words doctrine is about freedom of speech. Can someone quash your freedom of speech if you are essentially trying to provoke an immediate fight? Yes. The police could tell you to clear out, for example. Can someone kill you/beat you/attack you if you are using words to provoke an immediate fight? Not as far as I know. If you say “I’m gonna get out my gun and shoot you” then they might be able to make a case that they were afraid for their safety. But if you say “I hope someone shoots you,” they don’t get to punch you in the face. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/146 "2016-06-06T19:41:47Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The concept of “fighting words” is not remotely limited to direct threats while reaching in to your coat pocket. Saying someone and/or their parents are rapists and drug dealers sound like fighting words to me. The concept of “fighting words” has been fleshed out in [US jurisprudence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_words). Xenophobic campaign speeches does not fit the criteria. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/147 "2016-06-06T19:42:23Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The concept of “fighting words” is not remotely limited to direct threats while reaching in to your coat pocket. Saying someone and/or their parents are rapists and drug dealers sound like fighting words to me. Remember, no paraphrasing. Exact quotes. Exactly whose parents did he say were rapists? (Let’s get that out of the way first, and then we can talk about “fighting words”.) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/148 "2016-06-06T19:43:45Z")
I made myself clearer, I hope, after you quoted me. We are talking about responsibilty not whether violence is acceptable. If I walk around saying that certain people should go back to Africa, I must accept some responsibilty for any violence that might happen even if the people committing violence are the ones criminally responsible and I have the Constitution on my side. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/149 "2016-06-06T19:46:30Z")
Aw, c’mon, **John** , you know the personal is different from the political. A matter of scale if nothing else! ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/150 "2016-06-06T19:46:31Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I made myself clearer, I hope, after you quoted me. > > We are talking about responsibilty not whether violence is acceptable. If I walk around saying that certain people should go back to Africa, I must accept some responsibilty for any violence that might happen even if the people committing violence are the ones criminally responsible and I have the Constitution on my side. Does this hold in other cases too? _If I walk around in revealing clothing, I must accept some responsibility for any violence that might happen even if the people committing violence are the ones criminally responsible and I have the Constitution on my side.?_ ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/151 "2016-06-06T19:46:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Remember, no paraphrasing. Exact quotes. Exactly whose parents did he say were rapists? (Let’s get that out of the way first, and then we can talk about “fighting words”.) Why do I have to google that for you? > [@](#): > > “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/152 "2016-06-06T19:48:46Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The concept of “fighting words” is not remotely limited to direct threats while reaching in to your coat pocket. I went out of my way to explicitly say that was not a limit. I said it was one example, an that there were others. I have no intention of making an exhaustive list. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/153 "2016-06-06T19:57:24Z")
Well it was a pretty silly example. Anyway, I meant to add to my above post: [Whose parents might he be insulting?](http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/19/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/) > [@](#): > > 5 > About 7% of K-12 students had at least one unauthorized immigrant parent in 2012. Among these students, about eight-in-ten (79%) were born in the U.S. In Nevada, almost one-in-five students (18%) have at least one unauthorized immigrant parent, the largest share in the nation. Other top states on this measure are California (13%), Texas (13%) and Arizona (11%). ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/154 "2016-06-06T19:57:52Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I made myself clearer, I hope, after you quoted me. > > We are talking about responsibilty not whether violence is acceptable. If I walk around saying that certain people should go back to Africa, I must accept some responsibilty for any violence that might happen even if the people committing violence are the ones criminally responsible and I have the Constitution on my side. You said, in your rephrased post > [@](#): > > So a riot breaking out just after he said it would be on Trump but a violent protest the following week he’s scott free? I’m confused, honestly, about what you’re asking. You said “fighting words,” but I’m not sure how you mean that phrase. I think if I understood that, I would understand what you’re asking. I think, and I could be wrong, that the underlying question is “When is it justifiable to counter speech with violence?” Is that a fair way of framing the question? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/155 "2016-06-06T19:58:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > We are talking past each other. > > Is anyone else confused about this? It’s so crystal clear to me that I can’t see what the problem is. If someone else can explain it, please do. Some people are willing to excuse violence for political purposes but want to dance around a full admission. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/156 "2016-06-06T20:00:54Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Why do I have to google that for you? Well, that’s a good question if you’re going to edit it to make it look worse than it actually was. Here is the full quote: “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.” Now. Whose parents was he insulting again? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/157 "2016-06-06T20:03:52Z")
Some of them are good people, he assumes? Damned white of him! ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/158 "2016-06-06T20:04:27Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I appreciate the concern but Trump is a threat unlike any the nation has seen since the Civil War. Nah… He’d be a rotten President, but we wouldn’t see a crisis anywhere near the secession crisis of '61. Not even close. We survived Reagan and Bush the lesser; we can survive this horse’s ass. The institutions of liberty are still strong. He could degrade them, but not eliminate them. **iiandyiiii** is right: the violence only serves Trump’s needs. Peaceful opposition, within the limits of the law, is the best way to show our respect for the law. It’s self-contradictory to say, “This man is a threat to the rule of law” and then smash somebody up for being a Trumpa. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/159 "2016-06-06T20:07:56Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > _None_ of it is good, it is all tragic. How much responsibility does Trump bear? Just as I said, I dunno. But some. Should I and those like me go to a Sanders rally and physically attack his supporters? I have a legitimate fear of high levels of taxation. Why is that the left apologizes for violent consequences to the exercise of fundamental rights? We don’t see heavily armed right wingers physically attacking Clinton or Sanders supporters on public streets. In addition to being immoral according to founding principles. It’s strategically unwise to cause fear in the types who would prefer a strong law and order response. On a side note: why do you think it is that police get away with unjustifiable shootings and abuse? Why do you think prisons are as brutal and as rough as they are in this country? It’s because the majority fears the alternative. Seeing angry and violent swarms of people waving a foreign flag attacking supporters of a presidential candidate is going to make people fearful and angry. And it’s not like they don’t see the hypocrisy of the left as well. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2016, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217/160 "2016-06-06T20:08:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, that’s a good question if you’re going to edit it to make it look worse than it actually was. Here is the full quote Some of your arguments are hate speech apologism. Some downplay rape. They justify criminal activity. Some of your arguments, I assume, are good. How does that feel? Lol. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-primary-election/752217.md?page=9)