# California Schools not allowed to ban students, your opinion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2019, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011 "2019-09-10T21:38:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/41 "2019-09-11T15:41:10Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Is it racism to want to have a classroom without disruption? Is it racism to talk about bad/ Not involved parents? Is it racism to talk about unwed pregnancies? Is it racism to talk about poverty in the classroom and how it affects those students as well as the rest of the class? It is racism when you treat the behavior of African-American children harsher than you do Caucasian children. I saw this happen when I was in school, and I saw this happen when my son was in school. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/42 "2019-09-11T15:52:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It is racism when you treat the behavior of African-American children harsher than you do Caucasian children. > I saw this happen when I was in school, and I saw this happen when my son was in school. Anecdotes aside (since I did not see that) but ahem. You deal with racism the same way you deal with bad behavior, you fucking get rid of it. If the teacher is racist, here’s the door. It sounds like with all the racist teachers out there that the teachers union would be up in arms… Are they? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/43 "2019-09-11T15:55:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It is racism when you treat the behavior of African-American children harsher than you do Caucasian children. > I saw this happen when I was in school, and I saw this happen when my son was in school. Amen. In a million little ways. This isn’t the only problem in education, but it is a real problem, and when white people outside schools feel obligated to knee-jerk defend faceless white teachers out of some sense of kinship–when they deny the benefit of the doubt to targeted kids–we can’t fix this. And, it’s worth mentioning, that African American teachers also can have double standards–and when they do, IME, they target African American kids. This isn’t an individual problem, it’s a deeply institutionalized problem. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/44 "2019-09-11T15:55:32Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Anecdotes aside (since I did not see that) but ahem. You deal with racism the same way you deal with bad behavior, you fucking get rid of it. If the teacher is racist, here’s the door. It sounds like with all the racist teachers out there that the teachers union would be up in arms… > > Are they? Holy crap! **Kearsen1** has solved the problem of racism! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/45 "2019-09-11T16:03:41Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > If you don’t believe that–if you don’t believe that there is a significant minority of teachers who ARE racist–than there’s no point in us even talking. > [@](#): > > In 2014, a groundbreaking study in the Journal of Criminal Justice by J. P. Wright and others discredited both these claims. The study utilized the largest sample of school-aged children in the nation. Unlike almost all previous studies, it controlled for individual differences in student behavior over time. Using this rigorous methodology, the authors concluded that teacher bias plays no role in the racial-equity suspension gap, which, they determined, is “completely accounted for by a measure of the prior problem behavior of the student.” Racial differentials in suspension rates, they found, appeared to be “a function of differences in problem behaviors that emerge early in life, that remain relatively stable over time, and that materialize in the classroom.” > > Why do black and white students, as groups, behave differently at school? Black students, on average, “are less academically prepared for school entrance” and bring with them deficits in many social and emotional skills, the study found, over which their parents do not exert control… > > The deepest source of the racial-equity discipline gap is profound differences in family structure. Young people who grow up without fathers are far more likely than their peers to engage in antisocial behavior, according to voluminous social-science research… > > 87 percent of births to black, U.S.-born mothers in St. Paul occur out of wedlock, compared with 30 percent of white births. Tragically, the problem we confront is not so much a school-to-prison pipeline as a home-to-prison pipeline. [Cite](https://www.city-journal.org/html/no-thug-left-behind-14951.html). Disproportions in application of discipline occur because different demographic groups disproportionately behave in ways that incur discipline. > [@](#): > > Better classroom management. Not having racist asshole teachers bait black kids… Is it better classroom management to clear everyone else out of the room when one student is being disruptive? Is it baiting a student to require him to show up on time, stay in his seat, and not call the teacher names or assault her? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/46 "2019-09-11T16:08:57Z")
We also need to look at the matter from the standpoint of the other affected students. Having one student throw things, scream, tantrum, or hurl a desk or chair has a major impact on the 29 other students in the room. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/47 "2019-09-11T16:11:55Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > It sounds akin to the [disastrous policies that were implemented in Minnesota a few years ago.](https://www.city-journal.org/html/no-thug-left-behind-14951.html) By clamping down on the schools’ ability to discipline, it turned them into violent, out-of-control places. Do you have some research or anything from a non-biased source? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/48 "2019-09-11T16:12:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Holy crap! **Kearsen1** has solved the problem of racism! > > :rolleyes: Thank god! It’s hard to convey how SUBTLE these things are. I know a woman who has filed assault charges against 2, maybe 3 different black students, each years apart. I don’t know anyone else who has done that. Knowing her, and having watched how she interacted with kids, I have no doubt that she was deliberately antagonistic in a way she wasn’t with white kids. I saw her do it other times. Again, hard to call someone on any specific incident, and in every case the kid was doing something wrong. But she was different with black kids. She was the worst, but there’s been plenty of others. A white kid acting out is “bored”; a black kid is “aggressive”. A white kid chasing another is engaged in “horseplay”; a black kid is “threatening others”. A white kid is “thoughtless”; the black kid is “deliberately disrespectful”. The white kid gets moved into a more advanced reading class; the black kid gets suspended. Then, when they get to the next grade, the patterns and expectations are set. By now the black kids may well be acting out more–they’ve been primed for it–which reinforces racist bias. This is real. This happens. This is not always the case, of course. But it’s foolish to think it isn’t a factor or that it doesn’t need to be addressed. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/49 "2019-09-11T16:16:32Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > We also need to look at the matter from the standpoint of the other affected students. Having one student throw things, scream, tantrum, or hurl a desk or chair has a major impact on the 29 other students in the room. Will that kid be better when he comes back in a week? And, in any case, that’s not the suspensions they are trying to curb. They are trying to curb the ones that are for generic “disruptions”; they aren’t banning suspensions, they are pushing schools to seriously reconsider their use of suspensions and to eliminate the most casual offences. This is like moving one category of theft from felony to misdemeanor, and y’all are treating it as declaring open-season on personal property. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/50 "2019-09-11T16:19:15Z")
For a long time the trend in public education, especially in urban areas, has been to hold students less and less responsible and accountable for their actions. At this point, students are being taught from kindergarten through 12th grade that they can show up late 100 times a year, not do work, swear at teachers, walk out of classrooms, destroy school property, and get into physical fights without any real consequences whatsoever. I think we are doing them a tremendous disservice because, when they graduate and walk out the door, we expect them to be “responsible adults” who get a job, show up to work on time, treat their bosses and fellow workers with respect, and do a diligent job at performing their tasks. Our public schools seem to be doing everything they can to achieve the opposite results. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/51 "2019-09-11T16:21:48Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Will that kid be better when he comes back in a week? Will the other kids be better if they are evacuated from the classroom whenever he starts throwing chairs? Will the other kids be better with an extra week of classroom time where nobody throws chairs, or without it? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/52 "2019-09-11T16:24:33Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Will the other kids be better if they are evacuated from the classroom whenever he starts throwing chairs? Will the other kids be better with an extra week of classroom time where nobody throws chairs, or without it? Do you have an answer for the question that was actually asked…or do you not care where that kid ends up? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/53 "2019-09-11T16:27:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Will the other kids be better if they are evacuated from the classroom whenever he starts throwing chairs? Will the other kids be better with an extra week of classroom time where nobody throws chairs, or without it? > > Regards, > Shodan Throwing chairs is still grounds for suspension. But no, if my kid was in a class with someone who threw chairs, I’d expect a more permanent solution than there just being a week or two a month without him. That’s not dealing with the problem, nor is it making my kid safe. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/54 "2019-09-11T16:28:21Z")
I agree with \*\*Chronos \*\*about ISS. Not only do disruptive students view out-of-school suspension as a relief and reward, but they are even less likely to want to come back to formal education once they’d been out for a while. ISS would force them to keep their education going, and takes away any “fun” of being suspended. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/55 "2019-09-11T16:29:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Holy crap! **Kearsen1** has solved the problem of racism! > > :rolleyes: The sarcasm and eye rolling does not offer or address the actual problem, but instead tries to cover up or otherwise go around the facts that you’d rather not address. If racist teachers were an ACTUAL problem, they would be dealt with, quickly. Since this seems to not be the case, whom else would you like to blame other than the person or the people responsible for that person (ie, the parents…)? See Shodan’s post above for better insight. (I can hope right??!) ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/56 "2019-09-11T16:30:38Z")
You can spot a lot of bad social science on race by looking at what they try to control for in their model. If they are controlling for a factor that is itself the causal mechanism being identified by anti-racists or is highly covariate with race, then you know they aren’t doing careful social science. That’s certainly true of the Wright study **Shodan** cites. If race plays a role in student discipline, then in any given student cohort, those who have experienced discipline will be disproportionately students of color. If you then control for prior disciplinary problems when examining disciplinary decisions in later grades–as that study does–then, voila!, you’ll find little or no racial bias in the subsequent disciplinary decisions. There’s a pretty large literature on this stuff at this point, so if you are really trying to follow where the social science goes there are much better research designs out there. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/57 "2019-09-11T16:32:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you have an answer for the question that was actually asked…or do you not care where that kid ends up? Personal Responsibility. I will not be responsible for kids that act poorly if their own parents can’t be arsed to follow up or otherwise deal with them. Unless you are willing to strip these parent’s of their parental rights and make them charges of the state? Are you? Schools are not and SHOULD NOT be a place where everyone gets ribbon, regardless of bad behavior or ability. It is a place where you get the OPPORTUNITY to learn. END ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/58 "2019-09-11T16:33:15Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I agree with \*\*Chronos \*\*about ISS. Not only do disruptive students view out-of-school suspension as a relief and reward, but they are even less likely to want to come back to formal education once they’d been out for a while. ISS would force them to keep their education going, and takes away any “fun” of being suspended. I would prefer this be used, also. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/59 "2019-09-11T16:35:40Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > You can spot a lot of bad social science on race by looking at what they try to control for in their model. If they are controlling for a factor that is itself the causal mechanism being identified by anti-racists or is highly covariate with race, then you know they aren’t doing careful social science. > > That’s certainly true of the Wright study **Shodan** cites. If race plays a role in student discipline, then in any given student cohort, those who have experienced discipline will be disproportionately students of color. If you then control for prior disciplinary problems when examining disciplinary decisions in later grades–as that study does–then, voila!, you’ll find little or no racial bias in the subsequent disciplinary decisions. > > There’s a pretty large literature on this stuff at this point, so if you are really trying to follow where the social science goes there are much better research designs out there. Again, if racist teachers were the giant 800 lb gorilla in the room, do you not think it would be addressed? By the schools who fear civil cases? By the teachers union who fear bad press? By the actual schools who would not like to be seen as harboring racist teachers? I am not saying it doesn’t happen. I am sure that it does, racism is not eradicated from todays world but what it is, is no longer acceptable and would be dealt with quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/60 "2019-09-11T16:37:45Z")
The original question: "Will that kid be better when he comes back in a week? > [@Kearsen1](#): > > Personal > > Responsibility. > > I will not be responsible for kids that act poorly if their own parents can’t be arsed to follow up or otherwise deal with them. Unless you are willing to strip these parent’s of their parental rights and make them charges of the state? Are you? > > Schools are not and SHOULD NOT be a place where everyone gets ribbon, regardless of bad behavior or ability. It is a place where you get the OPPORTUNITY to learn. END So, is your answer: 1. The kid will be better when he comes back in a week. 2. The kid will not be better when he comes back in a week. 3. I don’t care about that kid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011.md?page=4)