# California Schools not allowed to ban students, your opinion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2019, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011 "2019-09-10T21:38:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/61 "2019-09-11T16:41:16Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > I am not saying it doesn’t happen. I am sure that it does, racism is not eradicated from todays world but what it is, is no longer acceptable and would be dealt with quickly. You are correct. We should use the successful efforts to eradicate racism from the nations’ police forces as the model to follow to eliminate racism in the teaching profession. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/62 "2019-09-11T16:45:34Z")
That is not even the point. The study found that, if you controlled for past behavior, there was no correlation between race and excess suspensions. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/63 "2019-09-11T16:47:33Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Again, if racist teachers were the giant 800 lb gorilla in the room, do you not think it would be addressed? By the schools who fear civil cases? By the teachers union who fear bad press? By the actual schools who would not like to be seen as harboring racist teachers? > I am not saying it doesn’t happen. I am sure that it does, racism is not eradicated from todays world but what it is, is no longer acceptable and would be dealt with quickly. No, this isn’t true. You can take it from a practicing civil rights lawyer. There is very little litigation over racially disparate discipline, for a whole range of reasons. Mainly, no single student subject to unfair discipline has any significant damages. Also, student data is subject to pretty strict privacy protections that judges are reluctant to override. Schools and teacher unions in many places are aware of the problem and accept that it means they need to change. In many places, they have led or joined the very reforms being criticized in this thread. Obviously, like most examples of racism in America, there is almost certainly two things at work: there is some actual difference in behavior that results from the other social effects of racism before kids get to school and outside school, and there is also some difference in how that behavior is disciplined. The same is true in policing and courts and many other contexts. So it isn’t right to blame solely teacher bias, but no one is doing that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/64 "2019-09-11T16:50:32Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That is not even the point. The study found that, if you controlled for past behavior, there was no correlation between race and excess suspensions. > > Regards, > Shodan No it didn’t – it controlled for past disciplinary statistics. If the past disciplinary reports were partly due to racism, then this doesn’t tell us anything. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/65 "2019-09-11T16:54:42Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > For a long time the trend in public education, especially in urban areas, has been to hold students less and less responsible and accountable for their actions. At this point, students are being taught from kindergarten through 12th grade that they can show up late 100 times a year, not do work, swear at teachers, walk out of classrooms, destroy school property, and get into physical fights without any real consequences whatsoever. I think we are doing them a tremendous disservice because, when they graduate and walk out the door, we expect them to be “responsible adults” who get a job, show up to work on time, treat their bosses and fellow workers with respect, and do a diligent job at performing their tasks. Our public schools seem to be doing everything they can to achieve the opposite results. They’ve been saying this for fifty years, if not more. Is this true? Is it more true than it was before? Do you have any evidence this is true or is it just “darned kids today”? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/66 "2019-09-11T16:59:11Z")
Well, in the old days, the teacher could just _beat_ the kid. ---
**Author:** ![fedman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@fedman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/67 "2019-09-11T17:14:31Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > As a teacher of nearly two decades, I will say it is absolutely the case that teachers commonly see misbehavior on the part of black students as criminal and dangerous, when similar behavior by white students is dismissed as routine stuff. I will also say that I have known several teachers over the years who seemed to go out of their way to bully and antagonize black students. There are REAL problems with adults wanting a sort of fanning subservience from black students they don’t demand from anyone else. > > I also think that it’d be more honest to just kick a kid out than suspend them over and over again, until they are hopelessly lost and they drop out on their own. How on earth is missing school a punishment for a struggling kid? As a teacher, missing students always created more work for me than anything. And the suspended child comes back even less engaged and more disruptive. > > Finally, it’s a bit of a false dilemma. There are ways to discipline a child besides suspending them. my fiancé is Black teacher at all-Black inner city school, and tales about students engaged in insubordination behavior, not to mention assaults by parents when students are disciplined, tells me it is a racial problem. It seems that many students are not motivated to value education by parents and peers. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/68 "2019-09-11T17:16:56Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I agree there are racist teachers. How to deal with them? Well obviously “diversity training” as we all know has little effect and often makes things worse. They cant be fired because of tenure laws. Irrespective of the main discussion at hand, this is absolutely not true and I’m sick of hearing it from people who don’t know what they’re talking about. \*\*Tenure does not prevent teachers from being fired, it merely guarantees a form of due process. \*\* Kindly tattoo that on your forehead backwards and read it in the mirror every day. When I was a teacher the ‘tenure canard’, as I think of it, was often one of the first things people asked me about. Or rather, they usually asserted it. Wrongly. And it was a near foolproof sign that the person I was talking to simply had ideological reasons for disliking teachers, education in general or workers’ protections and had no actual understanding of what tenure means in public education. It just means there has to be evidence of wrongdoing. It has to be documented. Teachers cannot be removed capriciously on a whim. I assure you, a racist teacher can be fired if they behave inappropriately. They can be fired for much less. Stop saying teachers cannot be fired because of tenure. It’s just not true. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/69 "2019-09-11T17:17:01Z")
> [@fedman](#): > > my fiancé is Black teacher at all-Black inner city school, and tales about students engaged in insubordination behavior, not to mention assaults by parents when students are disciplined, tells me it is a racial problem. It seems that many students are not motivated to value education by parents and peers. Think about what it means to start this paragraph with “all-Black inner city school” and end it with “not motivated to value education by parents and peers.” ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/70 "2019-09-11T17:17:53Z")
> [@fedman](#): > > my fiancé is Black teacher at all-Black inner city school, and tales about students engaged in insubordination behavior, not to mention assaults by parents when students are disciplined, tells me it is a racial problem. It seems that many students are not motivated to value education by parents and peers. > [@](#): > > In the United States, acting white is a pejorative term, usually applied to black people, which refers to a person’s perceived betrayal of their culture by assuming the social expectations of white society.[1][2] **Success in education in particular (depending on one’s cultural background) can be seen as a form of “selling out” by being disloyal to one’s culture**.[2] > > The term is controversial, and its precise meaning is hard to define.[1] Some minority students are discouraged from achieving in school by the negative prejudices of ethnic peers; such a view has been expressed in articles in The New York Times, Time magazine, and The Wall Street Journal—and by public figures and academics across the political spectrum.[2] [source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acting_white) ---
**Author:** ![fedman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@fedman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/71 "2019-09-11T17:20:13Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > This line implies that it’s only OSS. > > I have no problems with the bill. You really should not be kicking kids out of school as a punishment, especially a 5 to 14-year-old. if you read the news, you know that 13-14 year olds have access to guns ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/72 "2019-09-11T17:33:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The original question: "Will that kid be better when he comes back in a week?So, is your answer: > > 1. The kid will be better when he comes back in a week. > 2. The kid will not be better when he comes back in a week. > 3. I don’t care about that kid. If you get hung up on THAT (assuming he is not your own child) kid, you just failed the other 20 ish kids in the class. I get that you want to not leave anyone behind, it is simply unrealistic and fantasy land thinking to believe that you will not leave some kids who don’t care, parent’s don’t care or they are detrimental to the rest of the class. Move them if need be, ISS, special classes I don’t really care what you do with them if you feel the need to help them. If you really want to help someone in that bad a situation, take them away from their parents and provide a better support structure for them. Keeping them in class does NO ONE any favors. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/73 "2019-09-11T17:34:43Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > You are correct. We should use the successful efforts to eradicate racism from the nations’ police forces as the model to follow to eliminate racism in the teaching profession. :rolleyes: I AM correct, the same could be done there. GOTCHA! (or not quite as the case may be) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/74 "2019-09-11T17:35:50Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Personal > > Responsibility. This is where the conservative concept of personal responsibility just completely breaks down for me. Yes, there are situations where it’s appropriate to say, “You fucked up your life, you have to deal with the consequences on your own.” It’s never the case where it’s appropriate to say that to a nine year old. Children aren’t capable of exercising personal responsibility, not to the extent we expect it from adults. So, when you’ve got a nine year old who’s acting out in class, because they’ve got a troubled home life, or disinterested parents, or whatever, it doesn’t make any sense to me to start talking about personal responsibility. It’s a kid. They’re not capable of taking personal responsibility. And yeah, I get that you’re talking about parents. I’m not. I’m talking about the kids. > [@](#): > > I will not be responsible for kids that act poorly if their own parents can’t be arsed to follow up or otherwise deal with them. Unless you are willing to strip these parent’s of their parental rights and make them charges of the state? Are you? Depends. Given the following scenarios: A) Child is left with parents, receives no outside assistence if parenting is substandard. B) Child is taken from parents and put in an orphanage if parenting is substandard. C) Child is left with parents and a social support network is put in place to address potential shortfalls in parenting. Which one results in the best outcome for the child? That’s the solution I support. Sounds to me like “C” is the winner, there. > [@](#): > > Schools are not and SHOULD NOT be a place where everyone gets ribbon, regardless of bad behavior or ability. It is a place where you get the OPPORTUNITY to learn. END Strawman. “Not kicking kids out of school for minor disciplinary issues” is not remotely the same as “Everyone gets a reward regardless of performance.” ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/75 "2019-09-11T17:41:50Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > This is where the conservative concept of personal responsibility just completely breaks down for me. Yes, there are situations where it’s appropriate to say, “You fucked up your life, you have to deal with the consequences on your own.” It’s never the case where it’s appropriate to say that to a nine year old. Children aren’t capable of exercising personal responsibility, not to the extent we expect it from adults. > > So, when you’ve got a nine year old who’s acting out in class, because they’ve got a troubled home life, or disinterested parents, or whatever, it doesn’t make any sense to me to start talking about personal responsibility. It’s a kid. They’re not capable of taking personal responsibility. > > And yeah, I get that you’re talking about parents. I’m not. I’m talking about the kids. > > Depends. Given the following scenarios: > > A) Child is left with parents, receives no outside assistence if parenting is substandard. > B) Child is taken from parents and put in an orphanage if parenting is substandard. > C) Child is left with parents and a social support network is put in place to address potential shortfalls in parenting. > > Which one results in the best outcome for the child? That’s the solution I support. > > Sounds to me like “C” is the winner, there. > > Strawman. “Not kicking kids out of school for minor disciplinary issues” is not remotely the same as “Everyone gets a reward regardless of performance.” Miller, I am not advocating the 9 yr old having personal responsibility. I am advocating his/her parent’s having it. THEY are responsible for their child. Adoptions can benefit. Even wards of the state can benefit (if you assume that governmental employees provide real benefits). If you start off by saying adoptive parents are worse, state employees are worse than a child’s natural parents’ then sure you end up choosing C. That isn’t a proven commodity though (and if it is, CORRECT that) Having teachers needing to be both parents AND teach a curriculum is not fair to the teachers ( OR all the other students) “Minor disciplinary issues” being the primary driver here. What do those constitute? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/76 "2019-09-11T17:42:37Z")
> [@Llama\_Llogophile](#): > > Irrespective of the main discussion at hand, this is absolutely not true and I’m sick of hearing it from people who don’t know what they’re talking about. > > \*\*Tenure does not prevent teachers from being fired, it merely guarantees a form of due process. \*\* > It just means there has to be evidence of wrongdoing. It has to be documented. Teachers cannot be removed capriciously on a whim. I assure you, a racist teacher can be fired if they behave inappropriately. They can be fired for much less. Stop saying teachers cannot be fired because of tenure. It’s just not true. Ok, you got me. I typed that without stopping to think. I meant no disrespect. Yes, I am aware teachers, even with tenure, can and do get fired. Your right it does require more work on the part of administrators which can be difficult since often principals change. Its often easier to just get the teacher to switch schools or move them into another position. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/77 "2019-09-11T17:45:27Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Think about what it means to start this paragraph with “all-Black inner city school” and end it with “not motivated to value education by parents and peers.” Does it mean that it’s racist or that this is a very real cultural issue that needs to be dealt with? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/78 "2019-09-11T17:57:56Z")
One idea is an alternative high school. In our district it is called [Horizons Academy.](https://horizons.smsd.org/about) In a neighboring district it is called [Blue Valley Academy](https://district.bluevalleyk12.org/schools/high/BVA/Pages/About.aspx). When I was student teaching the “bad” kids could go to class but had to get a form signed in each class that they 1. came to class on time. 2. brought materials. 3. worked. 4. didnt cause trouble. This form was reviewed by staff and sent home to parents every week. If that didnt work out it was ISS all day and if that didnt work out then you had suspensions out of school. Kids that get OSS can still take work home. So in that case, if a kid wanted to get kicked out, they had to really try and do it. Some did. But they were not allowed to run the school like we see in some areas. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/79 "2019-09-11T18:03:15Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Does it mean that it’s racist or that this is a very real cultural issue that needs to be dealt with? I’m saying that skepticism about the value of education is probably more prevalent among people whose kids still have to attend racially segregated schools in 2019. I’m not convinced there is a big disparity at the aggregate level. But at the individual level when I have encountered this attitude about education, it has been an attitude of _resignation_. Often, quite justified resignation about the prospects for poor black boys in certain zip codes in America regardless of what kind of grades they get in math. Chances are that if your kid attends a school with no white students then your life has all kinds of other shit going on–much of it related to the same racist forces that make it so that such schools still exist in America in 2019. You can call that a cultural issue if you like. But the solutions involve fighting racism. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/80 "2019-09-11T18:04:54Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > One idea is an alternative high school. In our district it is called [Horizons Academy.](https://horizons.smsd.org/about) > > In a neighboring district it is called [Blue Valley Academy](https://district.bluevalleyk12.org/schools/high/BVA/Pages/About.aspx). > > When I was student teaching the “bad” kids could go to class but had to get a form signed in each class that they 1. came to class on time. 2. brought materials. 3. worked. 4. didnt cause trouble. This form was reviewed by staff and sent home to parents every week. If that didnt work out it was ISS all day and if that didnt work out then you had suspensions out of school. Kids that get OSS can still take work home. > > So in that case, if a kid wanted to get kicked out, they had to really try and do it. Some did. But they were not allowed to run the school like we see in some areas. Good idea…but is it feasible in a district that struggles with funding? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011.md?page=5)