# California Schools not allowed to ban students, your opinion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2019, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011 "2019-09-10T21:38:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/81 "2019-09-11T18:13:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Good idea…but is it feasible in a district that struggles with funding? Oh I agree alot of this comes down to funding. In my expereince I’ve never seen a school have an ISS room run by a regular teacher or even had special training. True story: In one HS I worked at they had ISS but no funds for a teacher. They didnt even have a room set aide for it. The best they could do was assign one coach to have the kids in a little used room part time. In another HS they also didnt have an ISS teacher but had a different teacher every hour cover the room. Even if it was a sub. In most schools the ISS teacher is paid about the same rate as a para - or about half what a regular teacher makes. Then when you have just ONE ISS room in a school of 500 kids, what happens if you have 50 kids in it? ISS is usually a joke. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/82 "2019-09-11T18:16:05Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > You can call that a cultural issue if you like. But the solutions involve fighting racism. Ok, we get it. Racism is wrong. But how does even the most devoted anti-racist teacher deal with kids that want to walk in and out of their room, just want to look at their phones, disrupt constantly, and refuse to do any work? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/83 "2019-09-11T18:23:08Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Ok, we get it. Racism is wrong. I wasn’t reminding anyone that racism is wrong. I was pointing out that what is often attributed by conservatives to “culture” is just the refraction of racism. That is a point I am not so sure you do get. I would also add that the whole idea that black parents in the aggregate care less about education than whites has very little empirical support. It appears to just be a racist trope. > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > But how does even the most devoted anti-racist teacher deal with kids that want to walk in and out of their room, just want to look at their phones, disrupt constantly, and refuse to do any work? What you certainly don’t do is just write that kid off as coming from a bad culture, or decide that we can just kick those kids out of school because it is someone else’s error of personal responsibility. What you do is try to figure out why that behavior is happening and solve it. Sometimes, often even, you can’t. You can only work at the margins. But I can tell you some things that really help. One is smaller classes. Another is ample, full-time social workers and counselors. Another is the funding and training for restorative justice practices. All of those have something in common: $$$. I can’t speak for every state, but in most states, per-pupil spending is lower at schools that have more disciplinary problems. It should be the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/84 "2019-09-11T18:24:26Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I’m saying that skepticism about the value of education is probably more prevalent among people whose kids still have to attend racially segregated schools in 2019. I’m not convinced there is a big disparity at the aggregate level. But at the individual level when I have encountered this attitude about education, it has been an attitude of _resignation_. Often, quite justified resignation about the prospects for poor black boys in certain zip codes in America regardless of what kind of grades they get in math. Chances are that if your kid attends a school with no white students then your life has all kinds of other shit going on–much of it related to the same racist forces that make it so that such schools still exist in America in 2019. > > You can call that a cultural issue if you like. But the solutions involve fighting racism. IN absolute terms, what racist forces keep (segregated) inner city kids in the inner city? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/85 "2019-09-11T18:26:23Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > IN absolute terms, what racist forces keep (segregated) inner city kids in the inner city? More to the point: What keeps them telling each other that it’s “acting white” to value and strive for educational achievements. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/86 "2019-09-11T18:29:34Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > IN absolute terms, what racist forces keep (segregated) inner city kids in the inner city? The big ones are: [ul] [li]Housing segregation and discrimination[/li][li]Transportation networks designed during the height of white flight[/li][li]Household wealth disparities[/li][li]Racially-segregated job markets[/li][/ul] These are both the product of past racist practices and ongoing racist practices. For a while one hypothesis was just that people self-segregate because they prefer living near people like them. But it turns out if you give people vouchers to move and help them overcome discriminatory housing processes then they pretty readily move to places with much higher economic and educational opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/87 "2019-09-11T18:30:07Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I wasn’t reminding anyone that racism is wrong. I was pointing out that what is often attributed by conservatives to “culture” is just the refraction of racism. That is a point I am not so sure you do get. > > I would also add that the whole idea that black parents in the aggregate care less about education than whites has very little empirical support. It appears to just be a racist trope. > > What you certainly don’t do is just write that kid off as coming from a bad culture, or decide that we can just kick those kids out of school because it is someone else’s error of personal responsibility. > > What you do is try to figure out why that behavior is happening and solve it. Sometimes, often even, you can’t. You can only work at the margins. But I can tell you some things that really help. One is smaller classes. Another is ample, full-time social workers and counselors. Another is the funding and training for restorative justice practices. All of those have something in common: $$$. I can’t speak for every state, but in most states, per-pupil spending is lower at schools that have more disciplinary problems. It should be the opposite. The biggest step you can make to help children is get their parents involved. Not notified, not called, not text, INVOLVED. They can care all they want about their children, if they don’t ‘care’ enough to be involved, daily, then that child will undoubtedly do worse than an involved parent’s child. Schools WANT kids in school! Why? Because that is how funding is given. Teachers on the whole want to help children, they sure as hell ain’t there for the big bucks. I had teachers that would bend over backwards to help me if I showed even a modicum of effort and interest. But no effort and no interest? They can’t and shouldn’t be nannies. They are teachers. OPPORTUNITY is there. OUTCOME not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/88 "2019-09-11T18:33:16Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > The biggest step you can make to help children is get their parents involved. Suppose I showed you that, empirically, black parents care more about education than white parents and report higher rates of wanting to be involved in their schools. But then you observe that, in fact, white parents are disproportionately involved. What would you conclude the cause is? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/89 "2019-09-11T18:36:52Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Suppose I showed you that, empirically, black parents care more about education than white parents and report higher rates of wanting to be involved in their schools. But then you observe that, in fact, white parents are disproportionately involved. What would you conclude the cause is? That it is harder to be involved when you are working two or three jobs to put food on the table? ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/90 "2019-09-11T18:37:29Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The big ones are: > [ul] > [li]Housing segregation and discrimination[/li][li]Transportation networks designed during the height of white flight[/li][li]Household wealth disparities[/li][li]Racially-segregated job markets[/li][/ul] > > These are both the product of past racist practices and ongoing racist practices. > > For a while one hypothesis was just that people self-segregate because they prefer living near people like them. But it turns out if you give people vouchers to move and help them overcome discriminatory housing processes then they pretty readily move to places with much higher economic and educational opportunity. I know of no such thing as housing segregation and discrimination based upon what? Color? Because as far as I know, the color of money is king (assuming you have a decent credit history and not a bad rap as far as damage to previous rental property etc) No clue on your second point Household wealth isn’t racist … What job markets are racially segregated? I am really trying to understand how these issues are primarily racially motivated, but all I see is class. The poor downtrodden folks can’t be asked to pick themselves up. If they can’t pick themselves up, how can society expect them to pick the kids (That they shouldn’t have had) up as well. Vouchers might well help a certain section of those folks, the ones who actually do care. What about the rest of them? Can’t kick them out of school, what do you think those schools turn into? They turn into parking lots because the ones that don’t care won’t go to school. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/91 "2019-09-11T18:39:16Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Suppose I showed you that, empirically, black parents care more about education than white parents and report higher rates of wanting to be involved in their schools. But then you observe that, in fact, white parents are disproportionately involved. What would you conclude the cause is? Can you parse that for me? White parents are disproportionally involved in which direction? They are more or less involved? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/92 "2019-09-11T18:39:35Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > I am really trying to understand how these issues are primarily racially motivated, but all I see is class. Have you tried reading any books? A great place to start would be [this](https://www.epi.org/publication/the-color-of-law-a-forgotten-history-of-how-our-government-segregated-america/)one. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/93 "2019-09-11T18:40:44Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Can you parse that for me? > White parents are disproportionally involved in which direction? > They are more or less involved? More. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/94 "2019-09-11T18:40:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That it is harder to be involved when you are working two or three jobs to put food on the table? Racist? See this is where the wheels come right the fuck off. Not everything can be blamed on racism. Help the poor, THAT will help with most issues that a whole lot of folks today are screaming racist about. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/95 "2019-09-11T18:41:55Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > More. Then I would say that the black families don’t really care all that much regardless of what they answer to on a questionnaire. You MAKE the time for your kids. THEY are YOUR responsibility ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/96 "2019-09-11T18:43:32Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > Then I would say that the black families don’t really care all that much regardless of what they answer to on a questionnaire. You MAKE the time for your kids. THEY are YOUR responsibility I think this response tells us a lot about how you view these problems. Thanks. I have other reading recommendations if you’re interested in other perspectives. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/97 "2019-09-11T18:44:50Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I think this response tells us a lot about how you view these problems. Thanks. > > I have other reading recommendations if you’re interested in other perspectives. I do like to read so throw me some. My perspective is simple, my kids, my responsibility. I have 5 of them. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/98 "2019-09-11T18:46:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That it is harder to be involved when you are working two or three jobs to put food on the table? [Very few people are “working two or three jobs to put food on the table”](https://www.forbes.com/sites/aparnamathur/2019/08/04/are-most-people-actually-working-two-or-three-jobs-not-really/#45e36f954a56). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/99 "2019-09-11T18:48:42Z")
~1850 ‘Obviously, those slaves don’t care much about freedom. If they did, they’d be free. It’s about PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.’ ~1890 ‘What, you’re complaining? After the government took responsibility and freed you? And you’re still complaining that the only work you can get is in a field, for pennies, with constant abuse, and you can only live in a leaky, filthy shack? Take responsibility for your own life! It’s about PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.’ ~1950 ‘My god, you’re still complaining? After all these years, you still haven’t taken PERSONAL RESPONSIBILIITY? If you really wanted to vote, you’d just do what it takes to vote. Obviously you don’t care enough.’ ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/100 "2019-09-11T18:50:07Z")
My recommendations here: [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20302213&postcount=38](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20302213&postcount=38) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011.md?page=6)