# California Schools not allowed to ban students, your opinion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2019, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011 "2019-09-10T21:38:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/101 "2019-09-11T19:25:42Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > [Very few people are “working two or three jobs to put food on the table”](https://www.forbes.com/sites/aparnamathur/2019/08/04/are-most-people-actually-working-two-or-three-jobs-not-really/#45e36f954a56). Your own cite notes that blacks are more likely than whites to be working multiple jobs. The “very few people” works out to very nearly a million African-Americans. (There is also some evidence that the Current Population Survey undercounts the number of people working in the informal economy, although this point is disputed, so there may well be some additional number who work a regular job and also drive for Uber or clean houses or have some other gig.) > [@Kearsen1](#): > > Then I would say that the black families don’t really care all that much regardless of what they answer to on a questionnaire. You MAKE the time for your kids. THEY are YOUR responsibility If making time for your kids means the rent doesn’t get paid this month, are your kids better off? For example, do you make time for the parent-teacher conference or the PTA meeting, even if it means losing several hours or a full day’s wages? Sure, it’s easy to say that you shouldn’t have kids if you don’t have enough time and money. However, the kids are already here; you have to deal with the situation as it exists, not as you would like it to be. > [@Kearsen1](#): > > Adoptions can benefit. Even wards of the state can benefit (if you assume that governmental employees provide real benefits). Where are you expecting to find these adoptive parents, or committed social workers? News flash: the foster care system in most US states is chronically underfunded. Here in Kansas, for example, (and we’re not the most overstressed system) it’s part of the new normal for foster kids [to spend the night](https://www.kcur.org/post/kansas-foster-care-system-overwhelmed-even-more-kids-flood) in the offices of the state foster care contractors, simply because there’s no other place to put them. If you are willing to support greatly increased funding for foster care and adoption support, then sure, the system can be a lot better. However, that money could also be used in the school system and in the social welfare system, to help more kids stay out of foster care in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/102 "2019-09-11T19:29:36Z")
My experience is you really only need to get rid of about 1%-5% of the worse ones and once their influence is gone the rest can be dealt with thru normal means like calling parents. I’m serious. You can have 1-2 total brats in your class and the whole class suffers. Get rid of those students and the whole school changes. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/103 "2019-09-11T19:40:12Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Holy shit! > > Fuck all that noise. I’d pull my kids out of a school that adopted policies like that so fast it would make the administration’s heads spin. Same here! Good grief. What are some people thinking? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/104 "2019-09-11T20:05:02Z")
They’re thinking that if a black student and a white student both have identical disciplinary records, and they both get suspended for the same thing, it’s racism. So the obvious course of action is not to suspend anyone. Problem solved, racism defeated. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/105 "2019-09-11T20:08:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > They’re thinking that if a black student and a white student both have identical disciplinary records, and they both get suspended for the same thing, it’s racism. So the obvious course of action is not to suspend anyone. Problem solved, racism defeated. > > Regards, > Shodan Consider whether your need to straw man your opposition says something about the strength of your position. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/106 "2019-09-11T20:43:23Z")
> [@MissTake](#): > > pointing out which black female students would be pregnant before 15, and which black male students would be in prison I’ve definitely heard of teachers from economically depressed, meth-ridden, 100% white areas doing this kind of thing. Sadly, they were often right. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/107 "2019-09-11T20:46:49Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > One idea is an alternative high school. In our district it is called [Horizons Academy.](https://horizons.smsd.org/about) > > In a neighboring district it is called [Blue Valley Academy](https://district.bluevalleyk12.org/schools/high/BVA/Pages/About.aspx). > > When I was student teaching the “bad” kids could go to class but had to get a form signed in each class that they 1. came to class on time. 2. brought materials. 3. worked. 4. didnt cause trouble. This form was reviewed by staff and sent home to parents every week. If that didnt work out it was ISS all day and if that didnt work out then you had suspensions out of school. Kids that get OSS can still take work home. > > So in that case, if a kid wanted to get kicked out, they had to really try and do it. Some did. But they were not allowed to run the school like we see in some areas. I’ve posted this here before, but I’m going to say again that the alternative “school” in my old town did not have lesson plans or take attendance, and the people I knew who worked there (and they all had their own reasons for doing so) believed (among other things) that mandatory sterilization was a condition for admission to the school - not just the kid, either. Their parents, if they could be located, and siblings as well. :eek: I told that story to a woman I know who works as a regular HS teacher in the city where I now live, and she told me that the alt-schools here have stricter rules than the regular schools, so the kids won’t clamor to go there. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/108 "2019-09-11T20:48:15Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, in the old days, the teacher could just _beat_ the kid. And you’d be surprised how many people still advocate that. I’ve asked them, “Do you think a boss should be allowed to beat their employees?” and they say, “Oh, but that’s different”, just like beating wives and children is not the same either, in their eyes. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/109 "2019-09-11T20:49:22Z")
> [@fedman](#): > > my fiancé is Black teacher at all-Black inner city school, and tales about students engaged in insubordination behavior, not to mention assaults by parents when students are disciplined, tells me it is a racial problem. It seems that many students are not motivated to value education by parents and peers. I wouldn’t consider something like this racial as much as cultural or societal. I can assure you that there are plenty of “parents” who aren’t black who have conditioned their children to not value education. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/110 "2019-09-11T20:50:11Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > I’ve posted this here before, but I’m going to say again that the alternative “school” in my old town did not have lesson plans or take attendance, and the people I knew who worked there (and they all had their own reasons for doing so) believed (among other things) that mandatory sterilization was a condition for admission to the school - not just the kid, either. Their parents, if they could be located, and siblings as well. When you posted this here before, were you able to back up the story with cites? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/111 "2019-09-11T21:18:29Z")
I don’t suppose all the “troubled kid” classes could be taught by African-American teachers, so the premise that the problem is white insensitivity to cultural differences could be proven or disproven? ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/112 "2019-09-11T21:26:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > They’re thinking that if a black student and a white student both have identical disciplinary records, and they both get suspended for the same thing, it’s racism. So the obvious course of action is not to suspend anyone. Problem solved, racism defeated. > > Regards, > Shodan No, they’re thinking that if a black student and a white student behave in the same manner, but the black student gets suspended and the white student gets referred for ADHD testing, that maybe something is going on that isn’t quite fair. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/113 "2019-09-11T21:51:31Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I don’t suppose all the “troubled kid” classes could be taught by African-American teachers, so the premise that the problem is white insensitivity to cultural differences could be proven or disproven? Why are you assuming all of the “troubled” kids are black? Does this rule in the OP only apply to black children? Is it not possible for a white student to be disruptive? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/114 "2019-09-11T22:01:00Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Why are you assuming all of the “troubled” kids are black? Does this rule in the OP only apply to black children? Is it not possible for a white student to be disruptive? No, but the entire criticism is that banning falls disproportionately on black kids. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/115 "2019-09-11T22:51:36Z")
I’m surprised nobody has mentioned school uniforms, which some people seem to think is gonna save the world. Not gonna happen, not gonna happen. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/116 "2019-09-12T03:24:19Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I don’t suppose all the “troubled kid” classes could be taught by African-American teachers, so the premise that the problem is white insensitivity to cultural differences could be proven or disproven? Problem there is 1. not that many black teachers in the system. 2. they get snatched up by suburban districts and 3. they often dont want to deal with troubled inner city kids either. Finally I have seen some white teachers who do perfectly fine with all black classes. I should also add that Kansas city has an all black school called the [African Centered Academy](https://www.kcpublicschools.org/acpreplower) that has programs centered on promoting black culture. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/117 "2019-09-12T03:53:57Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > No, they’re thinking that if a black student and a white student behave in the same manner, but the black student gets suspended and the white student gets referred for ADHD testing, that maybe something is going on that isn’t quite fair. I think that children with disabilities in general get swept up in the “disruptive behavior” bucket. Reality check, they can be disruptive. They need additional supports and their behavior may not be what one prefers. My son, for example, got repeated suspensions for playing with his white board and marker in fourth grade. One could a) move those items, or b) ignore his doodling, but his school picked c) make a huge, instruction-stopping deal over it and then suspend my kiddo. I completely agree with the proposition that minorities are more likely to be targeted. I just find it laughable that any school routinely refers students for testing. They don’t want to pay for it. Easier to suspend the kid and hope you can eventually expel him. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/118 "2019-09-12T12:08:47Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Consider whether your need to straw man your opposition says something about the strength of your position. Thanks. I considered it, and it doesn’t apply. I get it - liberals will go to almost any lengths to deny that the reason for disparate outcomes could be due to anything beside racism. Unfortunately that runs up against the hard edge of reality, as it does when the administration says “well, it’s just their culture that they show up late, act out, and disrespect their teachers because their father wasn’t around to teach them how to behave” and the classrooms descend into chaos. I would say “you do you” to the liberal school administrators, but that screws over the students who are supposed to be learning something other than “you can get away with anything if you’re black”. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/119 "2019-09-12T12:15:45Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I should also add that Kansas city has an all black school called the [African Centered Academy](https://www.kcpublicschools.org/acpreplower) that has programs centered on promoting black culture. Maybe they’re doing a great job at promoting black culture. It depends on how you define “black culture”. > [@](#): > > According to state test scores, 10% of students are at least proficient in math and 25% in reading. [Cite](https://www.niche.com/k12/african-centered-college-preparatory-academy---secondary-school-kansas-city-mo/). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/120 "2019-09-12T12:22:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Thanks. I considered it, and it doesn’t apply. > > I get it - liberals will go to almost any lengths to deny that the reason for disparate outcomes could be due to anything beside racism. Unfortunately that runs up against the hard edge of reality, as it does when the administration says “well, it’s just their culture that they show up late, act out, and disrespect their teachers because their father wasn’t around to teach them how to behave” and the classrooms descend into chaos. > > I would say “you do you” to the liberal school administrators, but that screws over the students who are supposed to be learning something other than “you can get away with anything if you’re black”. > > Regards, > Shodan You never actually answered any of the criticisms of your arguments and of the study you cited. It’s easy to make this kind of silly, cite-free and broad potshot – it takes much more effort to address actual arguments and criticism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011.md?page=7)