# California Schools not allowed to ban students, your opinion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2019, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011 "2019-09-10T21:38:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/121 "2019-09-12T14:00:50Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Thanks. I considered it, and it doesn’t apply. > > I get it - liberals will go to almost any lengths to deny that the reason for disparate outcomes could be due to anything beside racism. Unfortunately that runs up against the hard edge of reality, as it does when the administration says “well, it’s just their culture that they show up late, act out, and disrespect their teachers because their father wasn’t around to teach them how to behave” and the classrooms descend into chaos. > > I would say “you do you” to the liberal school administrators, but that screws over the students who are supposed to be learning something other than “you can get away with anything if you’re black”. > > Regards, > Shodan You talk about the “hard edge of reality” but refuse to engage with actual data and discussions about methodology. Meanwhile, you’re selling a narrative about black kids that aligns nicely with the narratives created by slaveholders to justify slavery. In your mind, I suppose it is a total coincidence that you think these kids are lazy, undisciplined, and disrespectful because of their racial identity and that this was also historically a core precept of white supremacy. Total coincidence, right **Shodan**? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/122 "2019-09-12T14:15:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Maybe they’re doing a great job at promoting black culture. It depends on how you define “black culture”. [Cite](https://www.niche.com/k12/african-centered-college-preparatory-academy---secondary-school-kansas-city-mo/). > > Regards, > Shodan This is a warning for trolling. I was unsure after post #30, but that post combined with this one is hard to see as anything but trolling. Do not post in this thread going forward. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/123 "2019-09-12T15:45:31Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > My experience is you really only need to get rid of about 1%-5% of the worse ones and once their influence is gone the rest can be dealt with thru normal means like calling parents. > > I’m serious. You can have 1-2 total brats in your class and the whole class suffers. Get rid of those students and the whole school changes. Except…they’ll almost always be someone else who will take up that role in the class… and so on… ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/124 "2019-09-12T17:55:35Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > You talk about the “hard edge of reality” but refuse to engage with actual data and discussions about methodology. > > Meanwhile, you’re selling a narrative about black kids that aligns nicely with the narratives created by slaveholders to justify slavery. In your mind, I suppose it is a total coincidence that you think these kids are lazy, undisciplined, and disrespectful because of their racial identity and that this was also historically a core precept of white supremacy. Total coincidence, right **Shodan**? In the narrative you are selling, teachers are akin to slave owners. You know who else agrees that many black kids today are lazy, undisciplined and disrespectful, many black teachers. Are they like slave owners too? Your narrative aligns perfectly with what the communists used to say about America. Is that a total coincidence? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/125 "2019-09-12T19:49:34Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > I think that children with disabilities in general get swept up in the “disruptive behavior” bucket. Reality check, they can be disruptive. They need additional supports and their behavior may not be what one prefers. My son, for example, got repeated suspensions for playing with his white board and marker in fourth grade. One could a) move those items, or b) ignore his doodling, but his school picked c) make a huge, instruction-stopping deal over it and then suspend my kiddo. > > I completely agree with the proposition that minorities are more likely to be targeted. I just find it laughable that any school routinely refers students for testing. They don’t want to pay for it. Easier to suspend the kid and hope you can eventually expel him. No not quite. If a student has a disability and the school proves they cannot deal with him, then they have to pay to put him into a school where they can. For example here in Kansas City many kids go to [KCAutism Training Center](https://www.kcatc.org/). I believe its like $35,000-$50,000 a year. Yes, that district has to pay for it. I know one family who the family sued the local district showing their incompetence in dealing with their daughter and they got the district to pay to send her to a residential facility in Wichita (cant remember the name) costing nearly $100,000 a year. Its part of the no child left behind law. Its similar if you have a kid who is deaf your district would have to pay to send them to [Kansas School for the Deaf.](http://www.ksdeaf.org/) ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/126 "2019-09-12T19:55:21Z")
> [@Sparky812](#): > > Except…they’ll almost always be someone else who will take up that role in the class… and so on… No, I didnt see that. Your talking about just a few little ass\*\*\*\*\* that have decided their purpose in life is to ruin the school, sell drugs, and cause mayhem and nobody like parents can stop them. Look at their grades and they have never passed a class (except those times when teachers will make a deal with them - dont cause trouble in my class and I will give you an A - yes it happens). In reality even in inner city schools most kids can be kept in control with a combination of parents, grades, wanting to play sports, and strict rules including targeted suspensions. BTW, let me throw this out, being suspended out of school doesnt mean they cannot take work home and turn it in when they come back. If they are suspended, but still serious about school, they will do it. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/127 "2019-09-12T20:02:39Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > It sounds akin to the [disastrous policies that were implemented in Minnesota a few years ago.](https://www.city-journal.org/html/no-thug-left-behind-14951.html) This is one of the most disheartening things I have ever read. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/128 "2019-09-12T22:49:01Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > No, I didnt see that. > > Your talking about just a few little ass\*\*\*\*\* that have decided their purpose in life is to ruin the school, sell drugs, and cause mayhem and nobody like parents can stop them. Look at their grades and they have never passed a class (except those times when teachers will make a deal with them - dont cause trouble in my class and I will give you an A - yes it happens). In reality even in inner city schools most kids can be kept in control with a combination of parents, grades, wanting to play sports, and strict rules including targeted suspensions. > BTW, let me throw this out, being suspended out of school doesnt mean they cannot take work home and turn it in when they come back. If they are suspended, but still serious about school, they will do it. Or better yet - join the football team and you’ll get away with anything. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/129 "2019-09-12T23:20:26Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > This is one of the most disheartening things I have ever read. I agree, and so are the comments. I’d love to (well, not really) see the ones that were deleted. I’ll put it this way: I have always said that if Sandy Hook or Columbine happened at a school like this, it might be reported on the local news (maybe) and would disappear from said news almost immediately, and would later be discussed only on racist blogs. I hope this theory is never proven right or wrong. The is the closest I can find to that. Gee, I wonder why nobody ever talks about it. [Red Lake shootings - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Lake_shootings) My brother and his wife, who are the parents of the special-needs child I mentioned earlier in this thread, lived in Kansas City in the early 1990s and Houston, TX in the late 1990s, before they had their kids, and knew they didn’t want to raise children there because they met several TEACHERS who home-schooled! This was at a time when HSing was considered a wacko lunatic-fringe kind of thing, so that says a lot. He said that at the time, Kansas City schools would send cabs, at school expense, to pick up kids who didn’t show up to school. You can guess the rest: there were lots of “parents” who didn’t bother getting their kids up and ready for school on time, because they knew a cab would come for them. This was why the KC school district spent more than twice as much money per student as the rest of the state, with marginal results. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/130 "2019-09-12T23:36:03Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > . > > This bill tells kids its ok to walk in late, cause major disruptions, call the teacher names, and act like a total ass. > > What is your opinion? My opinion is that the bill doesn’t tell kids that at all. It just tells teachers that their skill set has to include more than just suspending kids. My sympathy is with the other kids, but there are lots of jobs that are difficult. I don’t give teachers and school managers a special pass just because they find it difficult. ---
**Author:** ![fedman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@fedman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/131 "2019-09-13T01:45:07Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > Well, your characterization is deeply cynical. Alternatives like communicating with parents? What are the chances that the parents are the problem? Isn’t it more disruptive for the kid to send them packing to a new school every 8 weeks? And burdening their no-good parents with trying to navigate this chaos? > > I say this bill is a good first step, it basically says - “Hey schools, do your job! Find a solution!” Now of course, IRL this is going to require more resources and money to tackle. Hopefully that will be recognized and addressed in due course. so teachers have to be child psychologists, family counselors, social workers in addition to teaching 30-40 other kids for low pay? and MR Idealist, where exactly is this money coming from? ---
**Author:** ![fedman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@fedman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fedman)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/132 "2019-09-13T01:48:14Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > With school being a fundamental prerequisite for successful independence, no one should be barred from attending school. so does Vermont have gun-bearing, violent, anarchic students? right! so you can judge other circumstances? ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/133 "2019-09-13T03:17:27Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > Or better yet - join the football team and you’ll get away with anything. No, I dont think so. Maybe in a few schools but IMO gone are the days athletes got away with everything. If anything athletic keeps the kids in line because many schools have policies where low grades or misbehavior can get a kid kicked off a team. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/134 "2019-09-13T03:22:05Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > With school being a fundamental prerequisite for successful independence, no one should be barred from attending school. Yes, they should if they keep the other kids from learning. School is a privilege. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/135 "2019-09-13T04:03:15Z")
I remember a few years ago NPR had a so-called expert on to claim that suspending kids from school massively “increased” their chances of going to prison in adulthood. The host took this declaration of the arrow of causality at face value. No one ever raised the possibility that what was really happening was that kids who were inherently oriented toward violence and antisocial behavior were more likely to get suspended on the way to adulthood because of their violent and antisocial behavior. :smack: Next someone will correlate the number of ice cream trucks on the road on any given day with the incidence of heat stroke and declare that we should ban ice cream trucks. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/136 "2019-09-13T04:14:01Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I remember a few years ago NPR had a so-called expert on to claim that suspending kids from school massively “increased” their chances of going to prison in adulthood. The host took this declaration of the arrow of causality at face value. No one ever raised the possibility that what was really happening was that kids who were inherently oriented toward violence and antisocial behavior were more likely to get suspended on the way to adulthood because of their violent and antisocial behavior. :smack: > > Next someone will correlate the number of ice cream trucks on the road on any given day with the incidence of heat stroke and declare that we should ban ice cream trucks. :rolleyes: To be fair, the two things feed off each other. Sure, a violent student is likelier to be suspended, but that suspension (if it’s the out-of-school type) arguably pushes them further yet down the road to crime. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/137 "2019-09-13T04:21:47Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I remember a few years ago NPR had a so-called expert on to claim that suspending kids from school massively “increased” their chances of going to prison in adulthood. The host took this declaration of the arrow of causality at face value. No one ever raised the possibility that what was really happening was that kids who were inherently oriented toward violence and antisocial behavior were more likely to get suspended on the way to adulthood because of their violent and antisocial behavior. :smack: > > Next someone will correlate the number of ice cream trucks on the road on any given day with the incidence of heat stroke and declare that we should ban ice cream trucks. :rolleyes: Only that the research made before does not point to dumb correlations like that one. > **[Black kids are way more likely to be punished in school than white kids,...](https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/4/5/17199810/school-discipline-race-racism-gao)** > > A government watchdog looked at the data — and it’s not good. > [@](#): > > This is not the first report to find something like this > > It would be one thing if the GAO report was the first with findings like this, but there’s a lot of research and data that shows black kids are disproportionately punished in schools: > > ``` > [ul] > > ``` > > [li]Federal civil rights investigations have found that black students are punished more harshly than white students in schools **even when black and white students engage in identical or similar behavior.** [/li][li] Black students with disabilities are almost three times as likely to experience out-of-school suspension or expulsion as their white counterparts, and twice as likely to experience in-school suspension or expulsion, according to a report from the National Center for Learning Disabilities.[/li][li] Although black boys face higher rates of school discipline than anyone else, a report from Columbia Law School’s Center for Intersectionality and Social Policy Studies found that black girls are six times as likely to be suspended as white girls, while black boys are three times as likely to be suspended as white boys.[/li][li] A study published in Sociology of Education analyzed a data set of more than 60,000 schools in more than 6,000 districts. It found that schools with relatively larger minority and poor populations are more likely to implement criminal justice-oriented disciplinary policies — such as suspensions, expulsions, police referrals, and arrests — and less likely to connect them to psychological or behavioral care.[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/138 "2019-09-13T04:36:56Z")
> [@fedman](#): > > so teachers have to be child psychologists, family counselors, social workers in addition to teaching 30-40 other kids for low pay? and MR Idealist, where exactly is this money coming from? Ironically one example pointed early by a critic of the ban in support of his position; does show that that is not really what it is done while applying also more discipline when needed, in a “school that was brought under control”. > **[5 Investigates: Changes at Washington Middle School](https://www.wearegreenbay.com/news/local-news/5-investigates-changes-at-washington-middle-school/)** > > Washington Middle School in Green Bay came under the microscope when a teacher publicly resigned at a school board meeting last summer, saying she felt endangered at the school. Now that the school… > [@](#): > > With Washington in the spotlight, the school district acknowledged changes needed to be made before the start of this school year. \*\*An additional associate principal was hired, another counselor, three more teachers and five new monitors to work where needed during the school day. > \*\* > **“We’ve added layers of supervision, we’ve added layers of resource to provide support for kids and teachers and our number one goal was to create a safe environment,** ” Hoh said. > > They also made a new commitment to explain to students – the consequences of their actions. My impression is that funds were found, and really, more money is needed on that front for the security of our communities instead of wasting money on a wall. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/139 "2019-09-13T04:48:32Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > It sounds akin to the [disastrous policies that were implemented in Minnesota a few years ago.](https://www.city-journal.org/html/no-thug-left-behind-14951.html) By clamping down on the schools’ ability to discipline, it turned them into violent, out-of-control places. > [@bordelond](#): > > This is one of the most disheartening things I have ever read. Only that it remains an opinion piece where bad things are cherry picked, so then another opinion can be used as a reply: [http://bethhawkins.org/2017/11/how-two-twin-cities-teachers-gave-devos-political-cover/](http://bethhawkins.org/2017/11/how-two-twin-cities-teachers-gave-devos-political-cover/) > [@](#): > > The St. Paul Pioneer Press, whose coverage of race-equity issues in schools I have criticized as biased, noted that local teachers called on DeVos‘ staff. Minnesota Public Radio did the same. The Star Tribune took no note of the meeting whatsoever. Neither of the outlets that covered it noted that the cases were hardly cut-and-dry instances of a violent youngster brutalizing an innocent adult. > > But worse, neither appears to have asked how two Minnesota teachers ended up as political cover for an effort to end systemic biases in discipline that contribute to nation-leading racial disparities. In St. Paul, Black students make up less than one-third of students, yet during the first quarter of the 2016-2017 school year, they accounted for 77 percent of all suspensions. > > There’s a ton of backstory here. The St. Paul Federation of Teachers campaigned to oust the superintendent who pushed to keep as many students of color as possible out of the prison pipeline, campaigning to elect a board that made firing Valeria Silva one of its first acts. Reaction to a teacher’s profane, racist blog divided the community. > > And Katherine Kersten penned one of her signature everything-but-the-kitchen-sink stories, blaming political correctness run amok, “equity proponents” and Barack Obama for a host of ills in an article published in City Journal. > > (Despite the fact that it bills itself as “the nation’s premier urban-policy magazine, ‘the Bible of the new urbanism,’” I had to look City Journal up. Apparently, it is “the place where Rudy gets his ideas” and “the magazine that saved [New York] city.”) > > “Donald Trump’s Department of Education won’t have to wait to see how this project has played out in the real world,” Kersten wrote. “The public schools of St. Paul, Minnesota, are ahead of the curve in the racial-equity crusade. The violence and chaos that racial-equity policies have produced there should sound alarms across the nation about what can be expected by pursuing this course.” > > The article’s race-bait title: “No Thug Left Behind.” > > Kersten’s not entirely accurate description of one issue: “Social-media comments can also endanger teachers’ jobs. On March 9, special-education teacher Theo Olson was placed on paid administrative leave after he, in two Facebook posts, criticized the administration’s lack of support for teachers. Olson made no mention of race. Nevertheless, Silva put him on leave after Black Lives Matter St. Paul threatened to ‘shut down’ Como Park High School unless Olson was fired.” > > The more factual description: Olson maintained a blog where he told “fictionalized” stories about students with pseudonyms like DeVonte and Meng “whoring trains,” fighting and speaking in exaggerated ebonics. He described himself as a misanthrope. And he displayed student assignments, complete with kids’ actual names, along with his opinion that the kids in his class did not care. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/140 "2019-09-13T05:02:12Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > -sps49sd > Could you mention some of those ways, please? > > Restorative discipline. Working WITH parents to discover what the problem is. Better classroom management. Not having racist asshole teachers bait black kids, and not having racist timid teachers freak out because if a black kid is loud in the hall, it’s seen as a prelude to assault. > … What is restorative discipline? Do you have the time to set up and meet with these parents? What is better classroom management? If I see racism at work, I call it out. At the very least, they change their behavior when I am around or involved. It doesn’t happen often. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011.md?page=8)