# California Schools not allowed to ban students, your opinion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2019, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011 "2019-09-10T21:38:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/141 "2019-09-13T11:11:38Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > What is restorative discipline? [Warning, PDF](https://portfolio.du.edu/downloadItem/342029) > [@](#): > > In essence, RIs are problem-solving processes held in a small conference or a larger circle format, which may include people affected by the incident directly and indirectly. Typically, conferences for serious incidents follow a formal procedure. > > First, a preconference meeting is held whereby a facilitator meets with a disputant to orient him or her to restorative approaches. At this meeting, a disputant can decline to participate in an RI or a facilitator can determine a conference is not appropriate if the disputant will not accept any responsibility or acknowledge his or her role in the incident and/or is not willing to repair the harm (Wachtel, O’Connell, & Wachtel, 2010). > > Second, if the conference is to proceed, a range of parties are invited to voluntarily attend, including the disputant, the disputant’s supporters, and all those negatively impacted by the incident (McCluskey et al., 2008). > > Third, in the conference itself, participants sit in a circle facing one another, and a facilitator uses a structured set of questions to guide the exchange among all the participants. The goal is for everyone (including the victim and the disputant) to voice their perspectives. The set of questions facilitate reflection on the link between actions and subsequent consequences. Typical questions include the following: ‘‘What happened?’’; ‘‘Who has been harmed/affected by what you have done?’’; ‘‘What part are you responsible for?’’; and ‘‘How will the harm be repaired?’’ (Teachers Unite, 2014). Questions also solicit sharing of the emotional experience of the incident to further empathy and understanding (Nathanson, 1997; Wachtel et al., 2010). > > Fourth, the participants jointly develop a plan to repair the harm and prevent future incidents. The aim is to hold disputants accountable for breaching trust with the community and at the same time reintegrate those students back into the community (Braithwaite, 1989, 2001; Costello, Wachtel, & Wachtel, 2010). Agreements to repair the harm can take many forms, including the disputant making amends through his or her actions (e.g., community service or repair damaged property). Typically, agreements are written down and agreed upon by all conference participants. > [@](#): > > Do you have the time to set up and meet with these parents? > What is better classroom management? In the vast majority of these “horror show” schools that people love to hear about, there are teachers who don’t have significant discipline problems. They manage. If more resources will help (and often they would, significantly), then we should provide them. Suspensions DON’T help. Having “that kid” out of your room for 3 day doesn’t help the rest of the class and it doesn’t lead to a better behaved kid upon his return. > [@](#): > > If I see racism at work, I call it out. At the very least, they change their behavior when I am around or involved. It doesn’t happen often. I’m not talking about a teacher coming to the lounge and saying 'Wow, these black kids sure are disruptive!". I am talking about, over several years, noticing that another teacher often has trouble with students that you have also taught without a problem, and that those kids are almost always black. That’s a hard thing to call a person on, because you aren’t in the room with them and you don’t know what happened in any particular case. I’m talking about noticing–again, over years–that when they describe a black kid, they generally start with “respectful” or “disrespectful”, as if those are the most important qualities, but when describing a white kid, they focus on qualities like intelligence or humor. It’s noticing, over years, that they attribute misbehavior from black kids to “willful defiance” or “laziness” and others as “boredom”, “immaturity”, “ADHD”. It’s noticing, over years, a strong tendency to suspect black kids of cheating when they are successful. Sure, you can say things like “That has never been my experience with that child” or “I think they are just immature” or “He’s very bright, I wouldn’t assume cheating”, but unless you keep records, it’s hard to convince someone there is a pattern. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/142 "2019-09-13T14:21:50Z")
Those are all good points. But I would hope you would agree that we can’t declare that there is as an absolute fact a problem in terms of racial discrimination just because kids of certain races are statistically being disciplined more than those of other races. Someone mentioned harsher punishments for the same offenses, and I’m not talking about that. That’s clearly wrong and needs to be addressed. I am talking only about whether the kids who are not ever cited for any misbehavior are more likely to be Asian or white or whatever. Even Ta Nehisi Coates acknowledges that there is more violence and social dysfunction in black communities, because of what he calls the “crabs in a bucket” dynamic of urban poverty and historical economic oppression. So even if we take his explanation as a given, does a classroom teacher really need to give certain students a pass for disruptive behavior in his or her classroom because of macro-level social forces that led to this misbehavior? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/143 "2019-09-13T15:04:10Z")
No one has suggested giving anyone a pass. What has been suggested is that the specific responses of suspension and referring to law enforcement 1) appear to be grossly over-assigned to African American students 2) they seem to dramatically increase the odds of adverse outcomes, like dropping out and ending up in prison 3) they don’t appear to be particularly effective as discouraging behavior, and that, given all these things, perhaps schools should use other methods, especially against vaguely defined offenses like “disruptive behavior”. As a second line of thought, the extreme disparity is a rich area for professional development and self-reflection. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/144 "2019-09-13T16:21:59Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > they seem to dramatically increase the odds of adverse outcomes, like dropping out and ending up in prison What is your response if I say that it looks to me like you are conflating correlation with causation, and that what is much more likely is that people who are troublemakers get in trouble in school when they are young and then get in trouble with the police when they are older? ETA: What this reminds me of is the logic we have heard for so many years about marijuana being a “gateway drug” to harder drugs like cocaine. The rationale being that kids who use marijuana are thousands of percent more likely to use cocaine than those who don’t use marijuana. Whereas what always seemed obvious to me is that for this not to be true, you would have to have lots of teenagers who are willing to do hard drugs but when a joint is passed their way, they say “no way, I never touch the stuff”. Which is obviously silly when you frame it that way, but this never seems to occur to any of the policymakers who cite these statistics. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/145 "2019-09-13T16:36:34Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > [Warning, PDF](https://portfolio.du.edu/downloadItem/342029) > > In the vast majority of these “horror show” schools that people love to hear about, there are teachers who don’t have significant discipline problems. They manage. If more resources will help (and often they would, significantly), then we should provide them. Suspensions DON’T help. Having “that kid” out of your room for 3 day doesn’t help the rest of the class and it doesn’t lead to a better behaved kid upon his return. > > I’m not talking about a teacher coming to the lounge and saying 'Wow, these black kids sure are disruptive!". I am talking about, over several years, noticing that another teacher often has trouble with students that you have also taught without a problem, and that those kids are almost always black. That’s a hard thing to call a person on, because you aren’t in the room with them and you don’t know what happened in any particular case. I’m talking about noticing–again, over years–that when they describe a black kid, they generally start with “respectful” or “disrespectful”, as if those are the most important qualities, but when describing a white kid, they focus on qualities like intelligence or humor. It’s noticing, over years, that they attribute misbehavior from black kids to “willful defiance” or “laziness” and others as “boredom”, “immaturity”, “ADHD”. It’s noticing, over years, a strong tendency to suspect black kids of cheating when they are successful. > > Sure, you can say things like “That has never been my experience with that child” or “I think they are just immature” or “He’s very bright, I wouldn’t assume cheating”, but unless you keep records, it’s hard to convince someone there is a pattern. Thank you for the information. For the latter part, I don’t mean I vent later, I mean I say something right then. But I don’t work in a school, and it is an unusual occurrence. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/146 "2019-09-13T17:14:46Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > What is your response if I say that it looks to me like you are conflating correlation with causation, and that what is much more likely is that people who are troublemakers get in trouble in school when they are young and then get in trouble with the police when they are older? I think everyone understands that there are complex confounding variables here. But if the role of discipline is to help, suspensions seem dramatically ineffective. The paper I cited earlier reported that: > [@](#): > > For instance, a longitudinal study of Florida ninth graders found that each suspension decreased students’ odds of graduating high school by an additional 20% and decreased their odds of enrolling in postsecondary schooling by 12% (Balfanz, Byrnes, & Fox, 2015). Moreover, a Texas statewide study found that students suspended or expelled for a discretionary school violation were about three times more likely than other youth to have contact with the juvenile justice system in the next school year (Fabelo et al., 2011). It’s hard to see how suspending students is helping. Furthermore, while correlation doesn’t inherently imply causation, it can serve as evidence, when their is a plausible mechanism of causation. In this case, it’s quite plausible that being banned for 2-5 days of school at a time creates an incentive for misbehavior, decreases a student’s sense of engagement, distances a student from social networks that might help, and serves as a band-aid that lets schools off the hook for finding effective ways to address the behavior. In the same way, while yes, the correlation between race and suspensions doesn’t inherently imply racism, again, there’s a quite plausible mechanism by which implicit bias on the part of adults and even students is an important element. This is like me saying “Ice cream melts faster when it’s hot outside” and you saying “Well, just because they are correlated doesn’t mean heat causes melting”. It’s pretty strong evidence that it might. Finally, I swear to God, if suspensions were a new idea, conservatives would Lose Their Shit over what a crazy idea that was. “Reward kids with a vacation after they are bad? Just let the school kick them out so they don’t have to deal with them? How on earth is that suppossed to help anyone? That’s the craziest thing I ever heard!” ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/147 "2019-09-13T17:22:26Z")
I’m not a conservative, so I’m not sure who you are directing that at. You are still citing the same type of studies that find correlation without showing causation. The causation idea is weakly possible, but it seems to me that Ockham’s Razor leads us to believe as a Bayesian prior that there is not much causation there. They need to do an actual prospective study where they take carefully matched high schools (or even better, matched school districts) and eliminate suspensions in one but not the other. Until they have something like that, no amount of repeating the same types of data analysis means much of anything. And BTW, I agree that out of school suspension is dumb. They should do ISS instead and use a juvenile detention center if necessary. Will it help the kids who get in trouble? I am agnostic on that, but I do believe it is good for the teachers and other students to have those troublemakers out of their hair. ETA: This is something about which my wife, a high school special-education teacher, and I vehemently disagree. You might say she is much more qualified to judge, but I spent several years substitute teaching mostly in middle school and high school. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/148 "2019-09-13T17:31:39Z")
[quote=“SlackerInc, post:147, topic:840011”] I’m not a conservative, so I’m not sure who you are directing that at. > [@](#): > > You are still citing the same type of studies that find correlation without showing causation. The causation idea is weakly possible, but it seems to me that Ockham’s Razor leads us to believe as a Bayesian prior that there is not much causation there. They need to do an actual prospective study where they take carefully matched high schools (or even better, matched school districts) and eliminate suspensions in one but not the other. Until they have something like that, no amount of repeating the same types of data analysis means much of anything. Why do you think it’s only weakly possible? I’ve been in public schools for nearly two decades, and it seems incredibly plausible to me. Furthermore, if there’s a strong possibility that it’s hurting kids and no evidence it’s helping them, how on earth can it be best practice to keep it? > [@](#): > > And BTW, I agree that out of school suspension is dumb. They should do ISS instead and use a juvenile detention center if necessary. Will it help the kids who get in trouble? I am agnostic on that, but I do believe it is good for the teachers and other students to have those troublemakers out of their hair. Thank you for worrying about my hair. But I will tell you, a couple-few days without a “trouble-maker” is not worth the additional work it takes to get them caught up. > [@](#): > > ETA: This is something about which my wife, a high school special-education teacher, and I vehemently disagree. You might say she is much more qualified to judge, but I spent several years substitute teaching mostly in middle school and high school. I think appealing to a couple years as a sub as superior experience to working as a teacher for decades is a weak argument. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/149 "2019-09-13T17:32:41Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > What is your response if I say that it looks to me like you are conflating correlation with causation, and that what is much more likely is that people who are troublemakers get in trouble in school when they are young and then get in trouble with the police when they are older? It is less likely when one uses a bit of logic, [crime rates are going down in America](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/01/03/5-facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/) outside schools while the overreaction to incidents that before were not considered crimes in schools did increase. Making things like the school-to-prison pipeline more than just an idea. So better solutions can and have been implemented with no disaster as a result. > **[The school-to-prison pipeline, explained](https://www.vox.com/2015/2/24/8101289/school-discipline-race)** > > Police officers in classrooms are just the tip of the iceberg > [@](#): > > In Clayton County, Georgia, for example, where referrals from schools were overwhelming juvenile prosecutors, the juvenile courts made an agreement with the police force and the school district, restricting the cases in which police were allowed to arrest students in school or refer them to court. The agreement had a huge impact in schools: the high-school graduation rate increased by 24 percent from 2004 to 2010, beating the national average. > > Meanwhile, some large school districts are moving away from zero tolerance policies. Broward County, Florida, one of the largest school districts in the country, decided in 2013 that schools, not police, would deal with students’ nonviolent misdemeanors. The Chicago Public Schools are trying to reduce the number of suspensions, softening a policy under which students could be suspended for using a cell phone in school and ending suspensions for children younger than second grade, among other changes. In Los Angeles, children under 13 won’t be referred to police for minor offenses, after police issued 552 tickets to preteens during the 2013-14 school year. > > New York City schools are taking a more targeted approach. The city recently unveiled proposals to overhaul its school discipline code. If the changes go into effect, school principals will have to get the city Department of Education’s permission to suspend any student for “insubordination,” or for any suspension of a student in third grade or younger. And it would no longer be possible to give “superintendent’s suspensions” (a more serious level of suspension) to students involved in “minor physical altercations.” > > Other schools are exploring restorative justice programs, which focus on forming relationships between teachers, students, and administrators and giving students an opportunity to resolve problems by talking about them. The Oakland School District has been testing this approach for 10 years and recently decided to expand it district wide after schools using restorative justice reported that their suspension rates were cut in half. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/150 "2019-09-13T17:41:14Z")
Apples and oranges. Those are all good reforms. Nowhere do I see any mention of the complete elimination of suspensions. It does occur to me though that proposals to eliminate suspensions may just mean to use ISS instead, in which case I completely retract my opposition. But if they just mean the kid gets to stay in the classroom with everyone else no matter what they do, no way. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/151 "2019-09-13T17:46:44Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Apples and oranges. Those are all good reforms. Nowhere do I see any mention of the complete elimination of suspensions. And no one proposed that, so one should stop trying to build that straw man. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > It does occur to me though that proposals to eliminate suspensions may just mean to use ISS instead, in which case I completely retract my opposition. But if they just mean the kid gets to stay in the classroom with everyone else no matter what they do, no way. And even **Manda JO** reported that that is not the case, so this baby step straw man is also not needed. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/152 "2019-09-13T17:49:49Z")
I haven’t read the whole thread or really anything from before I started posting on page 5 or whatever it was. If this is not about eliminating suspensions\* then cool. I’m not strawmanning, just going with what I assumed we were talking about based on the title of the thread. \*Or, almost as bad, insisting on racial quotas for suspensions. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/153 "2019-09-13T21:44:48Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > In the vast majority of these “horror show” schools that people love to hear about, there are teachers who don’t have significant discipline problems. They manage. I wanted to make two points on this: 1. Some of the most veteran teachers after time can cherry pick their classes so they only teach upper level ones. So for example in math they make the first year teachers teach all the freshmen and basic classes, and usually the most difficult kids. They also stick that teacher on a cart. I saw once at a middle school where the new teacher had to teach science off a cart. Yes, she had to haul all the lab equipment and such and set up and take down to each room, each hour. New teachers have to “pay their dues”. While the senior teachers only teach say advanced trig or something which are usually the older and better behaved kids so they can go “I don’t have any problems”. At another school the senior teacher was teaching in “their room” and would often leave materials out on tables and such (and tell the visiting teacher “dont touch any of my things”) and often and without warning, move all the tables and chairs around which threw off the other teachers seating chart. So you have a struggling new teacher having to move all of their materials around to each class, getting the worse kids, AND having to deal with crap from the older teachers. NOT a good recipe for success. Now some district spread things out better and require the older teachers to teach some basic courses while allowing a new teacher to teach 1 or 2 sections of an advanced one. 1. Some teachers dont have trouble because they make deals with the kids, you dont cause trouble, I wont make you work. If you look at the schools test scores and you notice how say certain kids english grades are way too low, that is often the case. It’s not all the teachers fault either. I was in one school where teachers who gave to many F’s were penalized even if the F’s were deserved (ex. the kids didnt show up, didnt turn is assignments, did poorly on exams, etc…). How can a teacher teach if a class of 25 kids only 12 show up? In another school it was in May and getting close to graduation and they looked and only about 1/4th of the seniors were eligible to graduate. They made all the teachers do all these extra things to get their grades up. So saying “some teachers have no problems” can be a complex one. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2019, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/154 "2019-09-13T22:00:21Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Apples and oranges. Those are all good reforms. Nowhere do I see any mention of the complete elimination of suspensions. It does occur to me though that proposals to eliminate suspensions may just mean to use ISS instead, in which case I completely retract my opposition. But if they just mean the kid gets to stay in the classroom with everyone else no matter what they do, no way. I totally agree, their can be much better ways to handle discipline that just out of school suspensions. For example when I taught in Olathe the kids who got in trouble were put in a special program where they were taught separate and if allowed to go back to regular classes, they had to have this form signed off by each teacher regarding attendance, behavior, and classwork. These forms were sent to a special counselor each day and another copy sent home to parents. This way their was a clear paper trail and students were held responsible for their actions. Finally it ensured 1 or 2 teachers were not giving the kid a pass NOR were they being too harsh on the kid. Now why KCMO didnt do this I dont know. ISS was a joke, not even funded sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/155 "2019-09-14T03:02:29Z")
Has anyone looked at the possibility that youths who hate school and consider it a pointless waste of their time have no incentive to avoid expulsion for behavior, and in some cases might be actually seeking it? ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/156 "2019-09-14T03:16:48Z")
That’s why I say they should get ISS or juvie if necessary. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/157 "2019-09-14T12:26:51Z")
In my experience, ISS is only marginally more effective than normal suspension. It’s a dumb idea that if a kid does his “work”, learning hasn’t been impacted. It’s the instructional time that a kid, especially a struggling kid, needs. My class can’t be replicated in a worksheet, and it’s a pain in the ass for me to have to try–it’s basically writing a whole second lesson. Furthermore, as has been mentioned, it often doesn’t even live up to it’s modest goals–there’s no teacher, or the teacher doesn’t give a shit. It’s just a warehouse at best and an opportunity for unhappy, disruptive kids to meet each other at worst. The problem here is that with certain kids–and black kids, poor kids, and poor black kids, especially–teachers and administrators are so quick to assume that bad behavior reflects a Bad Child who needs to be Taught to Respect Authority. In all my years of teaching, I cannot tell you how often I had a kid I thought was lazy or just a little shit, and it turned out there was a nightmare going on. They were being raped or beaten or watching their mom be raped or beaten or they were suicidal or starving or sleeping on the train or some other horrific circumstance. When it’s a kid that seems to acting “out of character” (i.e., not how we expect), we manage to root out these circumstances and address them. When it’s a kid that “looks like a thug/thot”, we assume it’s just their inherent nature, and we try to _break_ them. Referrals/ISS/Suspensions/Alternative School/Prison have been the playbook for years. Once a school decides a kid is “bad”, they start compiling paperwork to get the train moving so that the kid can be removed. So, so often, no one has any real belief that the behavior could be corrected: it’s a bad kid, and it’s just a matter of jumping through hoops and checking off boxes to get rid of him. People actively don’t want to figure out what’s really going on because it conflicts with the “bad kid” narrative they already have in their mind. This kills children, quite literally. It dooms them to prison, quite literally. We’ve been using this playbook for generations. It doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![kitap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@kitap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitap)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/158 "2019-09-14T13:48:52Z")
[RIGHT][/RIGHT] > [@Lumpy](#): > > Has anyone looked at the possibility that youths who hate school and consider it a pointless waste of their time have no incentive to avoid expulsion for behavior, and in some cases might be actually seeking it? This was certainly true of a (white) neighbor kid of my folks. He got kicked out of every school in Tucson including the school for at risk youth because all he wanted to be was some sort of criminal badass. His parents shipped him off to a military academy. He got kicked out of there. Last anyone heard of him he (an adult at the time of the crime) was doing time for an armed carjacking. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/159 "2019-09-14T14:18:39Z")
> [@Kearsen1](#): > > The sarcasm and eye rolling does not offer or address the actual problem, but instead tries to cover up or otherwise go around the facts that you’d rather not address. If racist teachers were an ACTUAL problem, they would be dealt with, quickly. Since this seems to not be the case, whom else would you like to blame other than the person or the people responsible for that person (ie, the parents…)? > > See Shodan’s post above for better insight. (I can hope right??!) Of course it doesn’t address the problem. The post they were responding to didn’t address it, either. Your “solution” is to fire the racists. To think that is possible shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how racism works. How do you propose these teachers get fired? They themselves don’t believe they are being racist. They are among many others who are just as racist, but also think they aren’t. So they will defend them. They are paid by a populace, 25% or more who also do not believe that what they are doing is racist. We can’t even agree that disparate results for black and white students in regard to discipline is racism. Hell, as a wider problem, we can’t even agree that black people going to jail more often for the same crimes means more racism. When BLM is still contentious, how in the world do you think that we can apply the same logic to schools and get teachers fired? We can’t even get racist cops fired! The idea that they are not being fired means racism isn’t a significant problem only works if there are no hurdles to detecting racism and firing teachers. But there very obviously are tons of hurdles. So your idea of “just fire the racists” is a poor one. It fits the maxim “For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.” Firing the racist teachers is not a solution–it’s a goal. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2019, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011/160 "2019-09-14T14:22:28Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > In my experience, ISS is only marginally more effective than normal suspension. It’s a dumb idea that if a kid does his “work”, learning hasn’t been impacted. It’s the instructional time that a kid, especially a struggling kid, needs. My class can’t be replicated in a worksheet, and it’s a pain in the ass for me to have to try–it’s basically writing a whole second lesson. Furthermore, as has been mentioned, it often doesn’t even live up to it’s modest goals–there’s no teacher, or the teacher doesn’t give a shit. It’s just a warehouse at best and an opportunity for unhappy, disruptive kids to meet each other at worst. > > The problem here is that with certain kids–and black kids, poor kids, and poor black kids, especially–teachers and administrators are so quick to assume that bad behavior reflects a Bad Child who needs to be Taught to Respect Authority. In all my years of teaching, I cannot tell you how often I had a kid I thought was lazy or just a little shit, and it turned out there was a nightmare going on. They were being raped or beaten or watching their mom be raped or beaten or they were suicidal or starving or sleeping on the train or some other horrific circumstance. When it’s a kid that seems to acting “out of character” (i.e., not how we expect), we manage to root out these circumstances and address them. When it’s a kid that “looks like a thug/thot”, we assume it’s just their inherent nature, and we try to _break_ them. > > Referrals/ISS/Suspensions/Alternative School/Prison have been the playbook for years. Once a school decides a kid is “bad”, they start compiling paperwork to get the train moving so that the kid can be removed. So, so often, no one has any real belief that the behavior could be corrected: it’s a bad kid, and it’s just a matter of jumping through hoops and checking off boxes to get rid of him. People actively don’t want to figure out what’s really going on because it conflicts with the “bad kid” narrative they already have in their mind. This kills children, quite literally. It dooms them to prison, quite literally. We’ve been using this playbook for generations. It doesn’t work. Outside of a 24/7 boarding school how is the school system supposed to solve those sort of problems? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-schools-not-allowed-to-ban-students-your-opinion/840011.md?page=9)