# California split into two states...how? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 4, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-split-into-two-states-how/587820 "2011-07-04T16:34:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-split-into-two-states-how/587820/21 "2011-07-04T20:30:10Z")
A few years ago there was a ballot measure to split Los Angeles into two parts - essentially, the San Fernando valley area wanted to secede and form its own city. As it happens, the entire City of Los Angeles got to vote on it - and it was voted down. So, rather than just the San Fernando valley voting “YES”, you had the rest of LA voting “NO”. I would suspect the same dynamic would occur if the state were to try to split - one section would want to secede, while the rest of the state (and US Congress?) would get to vote also. Likelihood of success? - Near zilch. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-split-into-two-states-how/587820/22 "2011-07-04T20:47:22Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > One thing that’s amazed me since moving to SoCal is the fairly widespread notion that a 20-million-person megalopolis plonked down on the edge of a desert, in defiance of all reasonable environmental and geographic logic, somehow has a moral claim to water from hundreds of miles away just because we want it. LA isn’t a desert, it’s more chaparal. Next in many case, LA _bought_ the water rights. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-split-into-two-states-how/587820/23 "2011-07-04T21:02:12Z")
Well, to hear people from the Bay Area talk, we’re a _cultural_ desert at least. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-split-into-two-states-how/587820/24 "2011-07-04T21:11:54Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Well, to hear people from the Bay Area talk, we’re a _cultural_ desert at least. That’s just the faux hipsters from 'Frisco, no-body cares about them anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-split-into-two-states-how/587820/25 "2011-07-04T21:18:18Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Everybody would have to vote on it: Californians & Congress. > > The major stumbling block is where to draw the line. California is two states combined, but neither is self-sufficient nor contiguous. > > Plus, neither state would want Bakersfield. I have to say I’ve never seen any proposal like Stone’s. He’s essentially trying to split off the eastern part of the state. His new state would look like a backwards F. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-split-into-two-states-how/587820/26 "2011-07-04T21:22:19Z")
As said, people have been bringing up this idea every so often forever and it never goes anywhere. It would take something really politically earthshaking to actually happen; the creation of West Virginia in the wake of the Civil War being an obvious example of the kind of disruption that can split a state. But as quarrelsome as we can get, we certainly aren’t fielding armies against each other. > [@xtisme](#): > > I’m pretty sure that the state would have to vote on doing this, but what would be needed? I’m also pretty sure that the Congress and Senate would have to get involved since this would mean new Congressional and Senate seats from the new second state. Would the President also have to be involved? Who else? Who would ultimately set the new state lines? Well, according to Article 4 of the Constitution: > [@](#): > > New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new States shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress. So it seems like the consent of both the state legislature and Congress would be enough to make it arguably legal. I expect that the new state lines would have to be drawn by negotiations; and as others have pointed out, good luck getting agreement on _that_. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-split-into-two-states-how/587820/27 "2011-07-04T21:23:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > LA isn’t a desert, it’s more chaparal. The “desert” part was hyperbole. Doesn’t change the fact that you’ve got 20 million people living in an area that can barely provide water for one-fifth of that population. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Next in many case, LA _bought_ the water rights. Possibly one of the most simplistic summaries of an incredibly complicated issue that i’ve ever seen. Kudos. > [@silenus](#): > > Well, to hear people from the Bay Area talk, we’re a _cultural_ desert at least. Of all the stereotypes about SoCal, i think this one is the least viable. Los Angeles has plenty of culture; it has fantastic museums, galleries, and attractions of all types, from highbrow to lowbrow. Of course, many of the high culture institutions were created by wealthy Angelenos precisely _because_ the place was a cultural wasteland. They recognized that the area lacked a lot of the stuff that made San Francisco and Chicago and New York attractive, so they set out to create it with their money. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-split-into-two-states-how/587820/28 "2011-07-04T21:27:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That’s just the faux hipsters from 'Frisco, no-body cares about them anyway. Do people care about the **real** hipsters? ---
**Author:** ![AntiCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a587f6/32.png) [@AntiCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AntiCoyote)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-split-into-two-states-how/587820/29 "2011-07-04T21:36:15Z")
Maine was part of Massachusetts at one time. So we already have precedent for splitting part of a state off, without a war involved (like with West Virginia), though Maine’s admission helped balance the number of slave and free states. ---
**Author:** ![crewface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@crewface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crewface)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-split-into-two-states-how/587820/30 "2011-07-04T21:49:08Z")
Split it up like the fault lines indicate nature wants it to be split or just wait until the big one. Naming them would be fun and could be a contest. Maybe sell the names to corporations. SonyCal, CommuneChinaCal, Calgon, Calpo, or just contests with prises Calboys, Calcrap, Calfornicate, WaterCALmellon(green outside, red inside), Arnoldnation, DemocratCal, Caliberaladonia, MediCal, MexiCal, etc… winners would get to move to a real state like Canada. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-split-into-two-states-how/587820/31 "2011-07-04T21:51:20Z")
It seems to me that if there were a serious movement for a split, we’d routinely have a proposition or constitutional amendment on the ballot for it. I’ve lived here for 16 years, and I can’t recall ever seeing one (although I could be mistaken). If I ever did see it on the ballot, I’d vote against it. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-split-into-two-states-how/587820/32 "2011-07-04T21:51:34Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Plus, neither state would want Bakersfield. “You don’t know me but you don’t like me You say you care less how I feel.” Regards, Bakerfield Chamber of Commerce ---
**Author:** ![Foggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foggy/32/1082_2.png) [@Foggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foggy)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-split-into-two-states-how/587820/33 "2011-07-05T00:19:07Z")
[wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._state_partition_proposals#California) > [@](#): > > There have been at least 27 attempts to split up the state of California, the most populous state in the United States and the third-largest in area, since it acquired statehood in 1850.[6] Before statehood, the South strongly pushed for a slave state in Southern California below the 35th parallel north;[7] while the South reluctantly acceded to a single, free state in the Compromise of 1850, proposals for division continued up to the Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-split-into-two-states-how/587820/34 "2011-07-05T01:06:28Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Doesn’t implicate it _ **any more** _ for many of the \*\*\*existing \*\*\*states because of advances in transportation, communications and population mobility and urban spread happening after those borders were fixed I think you’ll find this to be the case for any border drawn beyond the original Eastern Seaboard settlements. > [@](#): > > (and in the case of many Western states, because they were just drawn along longitudes and latitudes on a map of sparsely populated lands with little regard for natural boundaries). Most “natural boundaries” chosen in the East were rivers, which are essentially as arbitrary as latitude and longitudinal lines. Rivers are _centers_ of culture and bring together the people living on either side. Using a river as a boundary is antithetical to the idea of a state boundary drawing a line _between_ cultural groupings. In any case, none of this explains the claim that “California is two [non-contiguous] states combined” in a way that doesn’t also apply to most other states. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-split-into-two-states-how/587820/35 "2011-07-05T01:16:23Z")
I never claimed that California was unique that way, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-split-into-two-states-how/587820/36 "2011-07-05T01:20:36Z")
Okay, but you still haven’t told us what you mean by “states” when you say “California is two [non-contiguous] states,” because I can’t think of any logical or common definition of “state” that would make sense in that context. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-split-into-two-states-how/587820/37 "2011-07-05T02:07:56Z")
What I meant was California is made up of liberal cities and coastal areas and a conservative central valley and random enclaves. Each group of Californians believe that they are the ones the state is meant to serve. The groups never see eye to eye on anything, and are ridiculously stubborn to boot. Neither can survive without the other, but try to tell them that. Two states. It’s metaphorical or something, not a literal joining of two different states (governmental). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-split-into-two-states-how/587820/38 "2011-07-05T02:08:49Z")
If we knew “how”, we would’ve done it already. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-split-into-two-states-how/587820/39 "2011-07-05T02:22:15Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > What is this supposed to mean? What meaning of the word “state”'is implicated here? If you’re talking only about the fact that California includes multiple cultural groupings, then that’s not anything unique about California. How many states are self-sufficient? I’m thinking zero. A state boundary in the United States is little more than an arbitrary accident of history drawn for political and administrative purposes. It doesn’t implicate any particular economic, social, or cultural unity. You are correct, at the time the lines are drawn. However, because of the effects of state law and the people and or businesses that come or leave because of those laws, it can come to be more unified economically, socially, or culturally than it was originally. I agree that it still would not be self sufficient. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-split-into-two-states-how/587820/40 "2011-07-05T04:27:44Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > What is this supposed to mean? What meaning of the word “state”'is implicated here? If you’re talking only about the fact that California includes multiple cultural groupings, then that’s not anything unique about California. How many states are self-sufficient? I’m thinking zero. A state boundary in the United States is little more than an arbitrary accident of history drawn for political and administrative purposes. It doesn’t implicate any particular economic, social, or cultural unity. Actually a lot of the east coast boundaries were drawn to reflect geography, which given the primitive forms of travel available to the early Americans could have major impacts on culture and create distinct communities. Some of that continues up until the modern day, obviously in a very limited manner. There are genuine cultural differences between different States, but you are correct the lines on the map aren’t the major dividing lines. For example Virginia has a few very distinct cultural “regions” just within itself. In the Southwest part of the State it is very Appalachian, there is little difference between Virginians on the other side of the big interstate tunnel and West Virginians over in Bluefield. Arguably from Richmond on south you have a more traditionally southern culture. From roughly anywhere in VA that is an hour’s drive from DC you have a very different culture that is more akin to that of DC’s itself (more liberal, more urban.) The Hampton Roads region is also a bit different from the rest of the state. The drawn boundary between West Virginia and Virginia is also significant. It’s really a line that roughly corresponds to the rough parts of the mountains that were not easily traversed prior to railways being dug through them. Because of this the early settlers to Virginia were almost all of English extraction, it was mostly poor Scots-Irish pioneers who settled the region known as West Virginia. In fact many of them came south from Pennsylvania and it was mostly just because of the original charter of Virginia that the land west of the Appalachians was even part of it, because most of the early settlers in that region were extremely dissimilar from the people who settled Virginia. They were from different parts of the Old World and had very different customs. By 1860 these differences had only magnified dramatically, not abated with time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-split-into-two-states-how/587820.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-split-into-two-states-how/587820.md?page=3)