# California to end cash bail system: good or bad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 29, 2018, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-to-end-cash-bail-system-good-or-bad/820468 "2018-08-29T13:18:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-to-end-cash-bail-system-good-or-bad/820468/21 "2018-08-29T21:17:50Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Thus Jamal might blow his hearings off if he is released on his own recognizance, So, the example had to be **Jamal**? Huh, imagine that. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-to-end-cash-bail-system-good-or-bad/820468/22 "2018-08-29T21:42:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I can also think of a scenario where more people end up sitting in jail awaiting trial. > > Arrestees are going to fall into three categories - A. those who aren’t going to show up for their hearing no matter what, B. those who will show up no matter what, and C. those who might or might not show up, depending on how much they have to lose. Thus Jamal might blow his hearings off if he is released on his own recognizance, but will show up if his mother puts up $5000 for his bail. So Jamal is arrested, gets released, disappears (because his mother doesn’t lose any money by it), a warrant is issued for his arrest, he is re-arrested, and he sit in jail. Whereas if his mother had been forced to post his bond, he would not need to be jailed. > > Even if the algorithm mentioned in the article is perfect, it will only identify those in class A and B. > > Regards, > Shodan How ridiculous. Of course the algorithm will include “how much they have to lose”- that is the entirety of its purpose. It will surely include how long you’ve lived in the area, if you have close by family and employment. Undoubtedly priors and your probation status would be included. And as noted above, Mom is probably not putting up $5k for bail. She’s probably giving a bail bondsman $5k forever so he’ll cover a $50k bail. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-to-end-cash-bail-system-good-or-bad/820468/23 "2018-08-29T21:45:28Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > How ridiculous. Of course the algorithm will include “how much they have to lose”. It will surely include how long you’ve lived in the area, if you have close by family and employment. > > And as noted above, Mom is probably not putting up $5k for bail. She’s probably giving a bail bondsman $5k forever so he’ll cover a $50k bail. And putting up her house as collateral. Which if “Dave” (it’s pretty damn racist to use “Jamal” isn’t it?) skipped, she’d lose her house and the $5000. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2018, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-to-end-cash-bail-system-good-or-bad/820468/24 "2018-08-29T22:41:29Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > If you have the cash you do. If you don’t and need a bail bondsman to get you out you lose 10% of the bond. A $10,000 costs $1,000 out of pocket even if you show up and are found not guilty. And if you cannot make bail, you cannot work. You cannot make car payments, mortgage or rent payments, credit card payments, alimony, child support… and you could locked up for many months before trial So, even if you actually did nothing wrong, you face financial ruin and lose all personal possessions. ---
**Author:** ![pullin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@pullin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pullin)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2018, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-to-end-cash-bail-system-good-or-bad/820468/25 "2018-08-30T10:15:04Z")
I have almost no knowledge of how the system works, nor how bail bondsmen operate but… Don’t judges set the bail amounts to match the wealth of the accused? I thought a poor guy would get a small amount, while a rich guy got a larger one, relative to their wealth. Please, fight a little ignorance here. I’ve never interacted with the criminal courts beyond jury summons’. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2018, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-to-end-cash-bail-system-good-or-bad/820468/26 "2018-08-30T10:32:39Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I also do not like the idea of terms and conditions for pre-trial release. I am innocent until proven guilty, so when I am out awaiting trial, I think it is outrageous that the court can force me to drug screen, be home by a certain time, report to a probation officer, etc. Seems to me this part is mixing together two different issues. I think we should reform our justice system so that the freedom of (presumptively innocent) people is not dependent on whether or not they can come up with a certain amount of money. Separately, I tend to agree with the OP that setting conditions on what legal activities a (presumptively innocent) person can do before trial seems unjust, and we should probably look at curtailing the ability of The System to tell Bob what he can and cannot do before his trial, beyond the obvious stuff like having to show up for his court dates. Each of those things seems it’s worth doing on its own. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2018, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-to-end-cash-bail-system-good-or-bad/820468/27 "2018-08-30T11:06:44Z")
I predict the initial iteration of this policy will last until a some abusive boyfriend slips past the algorithm and murders his ex-lover and her family. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2018, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-to-end-cash-bail-system-good-or-bad/820468/28 "2018-08-30T11:40:34Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > How ridiculous. Of course the algorithm will include “how much they have to lose”- that is the entirety of its purpose. It will surely include how long you’ve lived in the area, if you have close by family and employment. Undoubtedly priors and your probation status would be included. New Jersey has a similar algorithm-based system (according to a Planet Money episode), and supposedly it includes 9 factors, some of which are: - Do you have any bench warrants outstanding on you? - How old are you? (people younger than 23 are more likely to commit another crime while on bail) - Do you have a prior conviction for violence in the past X years? They didn’t mention any of the factors you proposed, but they could be in there too. > **[Episode 783: New Jersey Bails Out](https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/07/12/536905881/episode-783-new-jersey-bails-out)** > > Bail is broken. In New Jersey, defense attorneys, prosecutors, and judges banded together to try a dramatic solution: Blow it up. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2018, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-to-end-cash-bail-system-good-or-bad/820468/29 "2018-08-30T11:45:20Z")
> [@pullin](#): > > I have almost no knowledge of how the system works, nor how bail bondsmen operate but… Don’t judges set the bail amounts to match the wealth of the accused? I thought a poor guy would get a small amount, while a rich guy got a larger one, relative to their wealth. > > Please, fight a little ignorance here. I’ve never interacted with the criminal courts beyond jury summons’. I think it is based on the crime. For a small crime, low bail. For something like murder, might be $2 million bail or no bail permitted at all. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2018, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-to-end-cash-bail-system-good-or-bad/820468/30 "2018-08-30T12:06:36Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I predict the initial iteration of this policy will last until a some abusive boyfriend slips past the algorithm and murders his ex-lover and her family. And the knee-jerk reaction will lead to people being locked up for weeks on littering charges and shit. Some situations are no-win. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2018, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-to-end-cash-bail-system-good-or-bad/820468/31 "2018-08-30T13:28:26Z")
> [@pullin](#): > > I have almost no knowledge of how the system works, nor how bail bondsmen operate but… Don’t judges set the bail amounts to match the wealth of the accused? I thought a poor guy would get a small amount, while a rich guy got a larger one, relative to their wealth. > > Please, fight a little ignorance here. I’ve never interacted with the criminal courts beyond jury summons’. Typically, neither the defendant’s income nor net worth is a consideration in determining bail. Judges tend to consider severity of the charge, perceived flight risk, and perceived risk of further criminal activity–obviously super arbitrary. Here’s a pretty decent overview: [How Is Bail Amount Determined? How Are Bonds Set? | Nolo](https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-bail-set.html) ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2018, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-to-end-cash-bail-system-good-or-bad/820468/32 "2018-08-30T15:46:41Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Typically, neither the defendant’s income nor net worth is a consideration in determining bail. Judges tend to consider severity of the charge, perceived flight risk, and perceived risk of further criminal activity–obviously super arbitrary. > > Here’s a pretty decent overview: [How Is Bail Amount Determined? How Are Bonds Set? | Nolo](https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/how-bail-set.html) To play devil’s advocate, doesn’t having money and property in the area make one less of a flight risk? If I own a house and have a good paying job in the area, I’m not going to give that up to flee a DUI charge. If I don’t have any money or any job, it would be easier to live under the radar, especially in a different state where my home state may not even chose to extradite. However, I agree that it is terribly unfair for someone to sit in jail for months on a relatively minor charge simply because they are poor. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-to-end-cash-bail-system-good-or-bad/820468/33 "2018-08-30T16:02:06Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > To play devil’s advocate, doesn’t having money and property in the area make one less of a flight risk? If I own a house and have a good paying job in the area, I’m not going to give that up to flee a DUI charge. > > If I don’t have any money or any job, it would be easier to live under the radar, especially in a different state where my home state may not even chose to extradite. > > However, I agree that it is terribly unfair for someone to sit in jail for months on a relatively minor charge simply because they are poor. Exactly. Having deep roots in the area is going to make you less of a flight risk. At a certain level of wealth it flips though. If I have mansions all over the world, have a private jet and can run my corporation from some non-extradiction country, I am a greater flight risk. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2018, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-to-end-cash-bail-system-good-or-bad/820468/34 "2018-08-30T16:36:39Z")
> [@pullin](#): > > I have almost no knowledge of how the system works, nor how bail bondsmen operate but… Don’t judges set the bail amounts to match the wealth of the accused? I thought a poor guy would get a small amount, while a rich guy got a larger one, relative to their wealth. > > . That is a factor, but the main factors are severity of the crime and flight risk. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-to-end-cash-bail-system-good-or-bad/820468/35 "2018-08-30T17:09:53Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > To play devil’s advocate, doesn’t having money and property in the area make one less of a flight risk? If I own a house and have a good paying job in the area, I’m not going to give that up to flee a DUI charge. > > If I don’t have any money or any job, it would be easier to live under the radar, especially in a different state where my home state may not even chose to extradite. Certainly those are factors that influence bail decisions…but those are distinct from _ability to pay_, which is typically not taken into account. I have a home, a family, a reliable job in my community, a profession…those speak to my flight risk (no to mention that I’m white, educated, and would have a private lawyer arguing on my behalf) without a \*direct \*considerationon whether or not I have or can raise money for bail. ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-to-end-cash-bail-system-good-or-bad/820468/36 "2018-08-31T22:23:45Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > So, the example had to be **Jamal**? Huh, imagine that. Yeah I caught that too. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2018, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-to-end-cash-bail-system-good-or-bad/820468/37 "2018-08-31T23:44:48Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Certainly those are factors that influence bail decisions…but those are distinct from _ability to pay_, which is typically not taken into account. I have a home, a family, a reliable job in my community, a profession…those speak to my flight risk (no to mention that I’m white, educated, and would have a private lawyer arguing on my behalf) without a \*direct \*considerationon whether or not I have or can raise money for bail. As I recall, George Zimmerman, the Florida “neighborhood watch” volunteer who shot Treyvon Martin, was released on bail and then was hauled back into court when it was discovered that he had a bank account that [he did not disclose at his initial bail hearing](https://www.miamiherald.com/latest-news/article1940365.html). I think his bail was revoked, at least for a while, I assume that the reason he needed to disclose the account was because how much money he had was a consideration (at least in Florida). ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2018, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-to-end-cash-bail-system-good-or-bad/820468/38 "2018-09-01T01:27:43Z")
Here is the bail schedule for Placer County, California (do a Google search for others): [http://www.placer.courts.ca.gov/fees/2018%20Felony%20Bail%20Schedule%20FINAL.pdf](http://www.placer.courts.ca.gov/fees/2018%20Felony%20Bail%20Schedule%20FINAL.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2018, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-to-end-cash-bail-system-good-or-bad/820468/39 "2018-09-07T22:05:56Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Exactly. Having deep roots in the area is going to make you less of a flight risk. At a certain level of wealth it flips though. If I have mansions all over the world, have a private jet and can run my corporation from some non-extradiction country, I am a greater flight risk. Only for pretty major crimes, though. Someone with those means might flee a rape or murder or major fraud charge. They’re unlikely to do so for a DUI. I generally think that ending cash bail is a good idea, although I share the OP’s concern about subjecting people who haven’t been convicted of anything to unreasonable conditions of bail. It seems like a real solution would have to also put some teeth into the right to a speedy trial. A temporary stay in jail while things are worked out isn’t totally unreasonable. Languishing behind bars _for years_ without a trial is unconscionable. ---
**Author:** ![Mumberthax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea5d25/32.png) [@Mumberthax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mumberthax)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2018, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-to-end-cash-bail-system-good-or-bad/820468/40 "2018-09-17T17:01:08Z")
I thought the whole point of bail was ensuring you show up for your trial. Skip town; lose your bail. If that’s the case (is it?) then I think that GPS monitoring anklets would make bail obsolete. Just give them an anklet and cut them loose. Maybe give them conditions to follow (no alcohol, hold a job, whatev), as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-to-end-cash-bail-system-good-or-bad/820468.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-to-end-cash-bail-system-good-or-bad/820468.md?page=3)