# California wants to ban books about changing an individual’s sexual orientation. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2018, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-wants-to-ban-books-about-changing-an-individual-s-sexual-orientation/812704 "2018-04-19T13:53:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-wants-to-ban-books-about-changing-an-individual-s-sexual-orientation/812704/21 "2018-04-19T16:34:34Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > Why do you think it’s limited to mental health providers? I don’t know if it’s limited to mental health providers. It seems that way based on what I quoted in post 11. Is there something you want to make me aware of? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-wants-to-ban-books-about-changing-an-individual-s-sexual-orientation/812704/22 "2018-04-19T16:35:34Z")
Hold on, a book explaining how to do something is an advertisement for the service of doing that something? In that case handing out pamphlets on how to properly use a condom is equivalent to selling yourself as a prostitute. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-wants-to-ban-books-about-changing-an-individual-s-sexual-orientation/812704/23 "2018-04-19T16:48:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I want to sell my book, “Bricker’s Guide To Getting Straight, A Comprehensive Manual To Changing Your Sexual Orientation From Gay To Straight (While Still Liking Broadway),” in California. > > But this bill says: “The following unfair methods of competition and unfair or deceptive acts or practices undertaken by any person in a transaction intended to result or that results in the sale or lease of goods or services to any consumer are unlawful…” and my book is “goods.” > > Sec. 1770(a)(28) of the bill says: “Advertising, offering to engage in, or engaging in sexual orientation change efforts with an individual.” > > Therefore, in California, it would be within the reach of Sec. 1770 if one were to engage in a sale of a book (goods) that advertised sexual orientation change efforts. > > California Civil Code Sec. 1780 allows plaintiffs who suffer damage as a result of a violation of Sec. 1770 to win actual damages, an order enjoining the practice; punitive damages; court costs and attorney’s fees. > > A defendant, even if he wins, cannot recover attorney’s fees. What if I want to write a book, “How to get a Million Dollars”, and the three step solution proposed in my book is 1. Send Lemur866 $1000 2. ??? 3. You get $1,000,000. That would be fraud, right? Do I have the right to publish my book? It seems to me that if your book said, “Wanna cure homosexuality? The way you do that is sign up for Bricker’s Pray the Gay Away Camp, for the low low cost of $937, operators are standing by at 555-123-4567, call now because supplies are limited.” you would be engaging in fraud of the kind prohibited by the law. That is advertising conversion therapy. But you could still write a book promoting conversion therapy as long as you didn’t advertise for conversion therapy, in the same way that you could write a book about contract killers without advertising for contract killers, or a book about underage prostitution without advertising for underage prostitution services. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-wants-to-ban-books-about-changing-an-individual-s-sexual-orientation/812704/24 "2018-04-19T16:50:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I want to sell my book, “Bricker’s Guide To Getting Straight, A Comprehensive Manual To Changing Your Sexual Orientation From Gay To Straight (While Still Liking Broadway),” in California. … > [@the bill](#): > > … (i) (1) “Sexual orientation change efforts” means any practices that seek to change an individual’s sexual orientation. Is a book “practices”? No. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-wants-to-ban-books-about-changing-an-individual-s-sexual-orientation/812704/25 "2018-04-19T16:52:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sec. 1770(a)(28) of the bill says: “Advertising, offering to engage in, or engaging in sexual orientation change efforts with an individual.” > > Therefore, in California, it would be within the reach of Sec. 1770 if one were to engage in a sale of a book (goods) that advertised sexual orientation change efforts. In full (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > **Existing law prohibits mental health providers** , as defined, from performing sexual orientation change efforts, as specified, with a patient under 18 years of age. Existing law requires a violation of this provision to be considered unprofessional conduct and subjects the provider to discipline by the provider’s licensing entity. > > This bill would include, as an unlawful practice prohibited under the Consumer Legal Remedies Act, advertising, offering to engage in, or engaging in sexual orientation change efforts with an individual. **The bill would also declare the intent of the Legislature in this regard.** I think your book is going to be just fine. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-wants-to-ban-books-about-changing-an-individual-s-sexual-orientation/812704/26 "2018-04-19T16:57:25Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > I don’t know if it’s limited to mental health providers. It seems that way based on what I quoted in post 11. Is there something you want to make me aware of? I don’t know. The statute appears to make it “unlawful” for “any person” to engage in one of the enumerated “unfair or deceptive acts or practices” in “a transaction intended to result or that results in the sale or lease of goods or services to any consumer.” There’s noting in that that would be limited to a mental health situation. (And many of the enumerated examples make little sense in the mental health context – for example (12) - “Advertising the price of unassembled furniture without clearly indicating the assembled price of that furniture if the same furniture is available assembled from the seller.”) For our purposes, the unlawful “act or practice” is “Advertising, offering to engage in, or engaging in sexual orientation change efforts with an individual.” “Sexual orientation efforts” is defined as “any practices that seek to change an individual’s sexual orientation.” There’s nothing that is limited to mental health providers, so I was wondering what you were seeing. Now, as to the original question, that would seem to extend to _advertising_ to sale of “Changing Your Sexual Orientation for Dummies”. (And it seems to cover any service that is part of “change efforts”). I’m ambivalent on whether or not the simple act of selling the book is “offering to engage in” or “engaging in” the change effort… although, if you were the author, I think it probably would. (It’s the only time “engage” in used in the statute, so I don’t have anything to compare it to). ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-wants-to-ban-books-about-changing-an-individual-s-sexual-orientation/812704/27 "2018-04-19T17:18:42Z")
Why is it important if the law is banning books or speech? Isn’t speech also covered under the first amendment? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-wants-to-ban-books-about-changing-an-individual-s-sexual-orientation/812704/28 "2018-04-19T17:23:39Z")
The law doesn’t ban either. It bans services. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-wants-to-ban-books-about-changing-an-individual-s-sexual-orientation/812704/29 "2018-04-19T17:23:43Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-wants-to-ban-books-about-changing-an-individual-s-sexual-orientation/812704/30 "2018-04-19T17:27:13Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The law doesn’t ban either. It bans services. How do you figure? It very clearly bans certain acts in connection with “a transaction intended to result or that results in the sale or lease of goods or services to any consumer.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-wants-to-ban-books-about-changing-an-individual-s-sexual-orientation/812704/31 "2018-04-19T17:29:34Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > In full (bolding mine): > > I think your book is going to be just fine. But the text you quote is not part of the new Sec. 1770. It’s a preface that lays out the intent of the legislature. But the actual words the legislature uses are not exactly consistent with their expressed intent. In other words, the language they use in proposing how to modify Sec 1770 is sloppy. Now, because of that sloppiness, a plaintiff can sue, and the defendant cannot recover costs. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-wants-to-ban-books-about-changing-an-individual-s-sexual-orientation/812704/32 "2018-04-19T17:30:35Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > Why is it important if the law is banning books or speech? Isn’t speech also covered under the first amendment? Yes, but commercial speech is entitled only to very thin First Amendment protection. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-wants-to-ban-books-about-changing-an-individual-s-sexual-orientation/812704/33 "2018-04-19T17:31:15Z")
So gay conversion therapy is out, but [you can still practice homeopathy and naturopathy](http://www.naturopathic.ca.gov/consumers/faq_unlicensed.pdf) in CA as long as you tell them you aren’t licensed by the state. Go figure. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-wants-to-ban-books-about-changing-an-individual-s-sexual-orientation/812704/34 "2018-04-19T17:32:51Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Is a book “practices”? > > No. Who cares if a book is “practices?” The language is: “Advertising, offering to engage in, or engaging in sexual orientation change **efforts** with an individual.” Why do you mention “practices,” when that’s not part of the relevant Sec. 1770 language? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-wants-to-ban-books-about-changing-an-individual-s-sexual-orientation/812704/35 "2018-04-19T17:35:28Z")
Some people are confused by the legislative counsel’s digest. Such language is not part of the bill and does not operate to narrow language in the text of the statute. The relevant statutory language is: > [@](#): > > The following unfair methods of competition and unfair or deceptive acts or practices undertaken by any person in a transaction intended to result or that results in the sale or lease of goods or services to any consumer are unlawful: . . . Advertising, offering to engage in, or engaging in sexual orientation change efforts with an individual." Aside from the question of whether the prohibiting advertising will, as a practical matter, forbid book sales, there is also a straightforward application to the books themselves. The book itself is prohibited if it is as an advertisement for sexual orientation change efforts or it is a sexual orientation change effort. A book that says, “Great news! You can change your orientation by following the steps in Chapter 2” is both. There are some contrary statutory arguments. You could argue that once you’ve already bought the book, there is no further goods or services being marketed. But I don’t think that’s much of an argument. Most such books will surely mention services and the authors other work, and the cover and dust jacket could be interpreted as the deceptive part inducing purchase of the book. Finally, it’s important to note that in First Amendment law the inquiry is a little different from other areas of law. The question isn’t whether the statute can be narrowly interpreted not to affect books or whether the state will indeed choose to go after authors. The question is whether the statute is broad enough to chill the publication and sale of books. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-wants-to-ban-books-about-changing-an-individual-s-sexual-orientation/812704/36 "2018-04-19T17:36:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But the text you quote is not part of the new Sec. 1770. It’s a preface that lays out the intent of the legislature. > > But the actual words the legislature uses are not exactly consistent with their expressed intent. In other words, the language they use in proposing how to modify Sec 1770 is sloppy. > > Now, because of that sloppiness, a plaintiff can sue, and the defendant cannot recover costs. I’m not a lawyer, but I can see how it could be possible. I would think intent matters when interpreting words such as “engaging in” and “deceptive acts or practices.” The intent of all of the articles regarding this is also clear. “California wants to ban books.” Sure they do. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-wants-to-ban-books-about-changing-an-individual-s-sexual-orientation/812704/37 "2018-04-19T17:36:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Who cares if a book is “practices?” The language is: “Advertising, offering to engage in, or engaging in sexual orientation change **efforts** with an individual.” > > Why do you mention “practices,” when that’s not part of the relevant Sec. 1770 language? I think because the statute defines “efforts” as “practices.” I think the point, however, is that the statute bans advertising or engaging in the “efforts” in connection with the sale of goods or services. And a book _is_ goods. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-wants-to-ban-books-about-changing-an-individual-s-sexual-orientation/812704/38 "2018-04-19T17:40:15Z")
Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-wants-to-ban-books-about-changing-an-individual-s-sexual-orientation/812704/39 "2018-04-19T17:46:52Z")
Remember that this is part of the civil code. If enacted, you still can’t be tossed in the hoosegow for selling a book. It’s not a ban and calling it a ban is sloppy. But someone who alleges they bought your book and were damaged as a result can now sue you, for actual and punitive damages. If they lose, you can’t recover your costs and fees. That alone is enough to discourage me from selling my book in California. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2018, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-wants-to-ban-books-about-changing-an-individual-s-sexual-orientation/812704/40 "2018-04-19T17:51:05Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > … (And many of the enumerated examples make little sense in the mental health context – for example (12) - “Advertising the price of unassembled furniture without clearly indicating the assembled price of that furniture if the same furniture is available assembled from the seller.”) > … Selling ME unassembled furniture is definitely a mental health issue. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-wants-to-ban-books-about-changing-an-individual-s-sexual-orientation/812704.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/california-wants-to-ban-books-about-changing-an-individual-s-sexual-orientation/812704.md?page=3)