California wants to ban books about changing an individual’s sexual orientation.

As a general view, absolutely not. However, I fail to see how this is different than any professional licensing scheme.

I am not a doctor. Should I be able to publish a book explaining how to set your child’s broken bone without the need for pesky doctors and hospitals so you can save money?

Almost universally, states have decided that for the protection of the citizenry, there must be minimum standards that doctors, lawyers, hairdressers, plumbers, etc. have to have achieved before they will be permitted to ply their respective trades to the public. And as a result, there will be certain books that will not be permitted to be published and certain speech that would be unlawful.

This is part of the general police powers that states have exercised for hundreds of years to protect the health, safety, and morals of the public.

However, I do understand your concern. In this instance, the state is not saying that only qualified people can give advice on “conversion therapy.” It is saying that conversion therapy is so flawed and such quackery that NOBODY can advocate for it without facing civil liability.

As I said, I could see how an aggressive implementation of this law could run afoul of free speech or freedom of religion concerns, but if we take the Legislature at its word, then this law should only apply to purely commercial speech directed at inducing a person to try “conversion therapy” with the implication that there is valid science behind this therapy. Although, I’m not sure I would support such a law since we allow all sorts of other forms of medical nuttery to be permitted, I don’t see it as a constitutional crisis where books are being banned.

The law however, should not apply to preachers handing out Bibles and saying that if you are a practicing homosexual, you need to “choose” to stop. Nor should it ban the publication of a book by a “former” homosexual that claims to have been “cured.” That would clearly be a violation of the First Amendment, and I hope the courts very narrowly construe this law.

So you’re okay with the government never placing any limitation whatsoever on any activity that can be labeled as speech? Are you a big fan of Citizens United, then?

I think a book can, in some circumstances, be part of an “effort,” but by itself, I can’t see that it is an “effort.”

Let’s say that someone becomes involved in an illicit activity (for the purposes of this scenario, it doesn’t really matter what that activity is). To the extent that the illicit activity relies on printed and bound materials, it’s perfectly reasonable in my opinion to consider those documents to be in furtherance of the illicit activity, and I don’t consider that simply because part of the illicit activity involves an assertion to the First Amendment on the basis of printed materials being involved, I don’t think that cloaks the broader activity with any protection. The police shouldn’t be told, “Knock down the door, bust up their operation – but leave the books alone!”

However, if the documents were collected in a library or bookstore, I would see the documents in a different light. I don’t believe a library, as a general rule, has an agenda that would make it part of an illicit activity. Setting aside far-fetched scenarios like the documents involved having child porn in them or something, I think the library or bookstore would generally be free to sell the same books that may be part of an illicit activity if possessed in a different context.

I think the California law is best read as being consistent with general approach, but not being a lawyer, I do not know what courts have to say about this topic.

Depends. Are we allowing books on detailing the benefits and techniques of bloodletting?

I honestly don’t know. I could see how that might be construed as practicing medicine without a license, and if a doctor wrote it, he or she might face disciplinary action through the licensing boards for advocating for such archaic and harmful treatment.

But it is a fine line. What if I am a historian and am for some reason fascinated by bloodletting, so I publish a book giving all of the details on how to do it and quote 17th century doctors describing the benefits? I think I should almost certainly be permitted to do that even if a few idiots read the book and decide to try it.

And I think that any ambiguity should be construed in favor of free speech and not this statute.

I agree that the question of what constitutes an “effort” probably involves examining more than just the text inside a book. But isn’t the correct subject of analysis not the library or book store, but instead the author and publisher?

If a publisher can be held civilly liable for the content of a book, I don’t think that is meaningfully different from banning a book. Do you disagree?

What’s the California government stance on Homeopathy?

The less of it, the better.

Cite? The Homeopathy community might disagree with you.
California’s Health Freedom Law: 14 Years Strong

whoosh

Oh, I guess I get it now. But the point stands. While conversion therapy may be more vile, from a consumer protection POV homeopathy is far and away a greater issue than conversion therapy in California.

And you can probably still sell that bloodletting book.

I have a hard time seeing that the author and publisher could be conducting an “effort” by selling a book on Amazon. It just seems to me that the author and publisher are too divorced from having any sort of effort carrying out a “practice” on the target.

However, if the author and publisher are also running a storefront business that included producing literature as a component of some sort of crackpot rehabilitative plan or therapy, then whatever is in the text would be evidence of their violation of the law.

Trump probably wouldn’t disagree. See New York v. Trump Entrepreneur Initiative LLC, Low v. Trump University, LLC, and Cohen v. Trump (not the Cohen you’re thinking of).

Can you get a grip? Why the fuck does this thread need a Trump reference?

Fraud. Books. Think about it. You’ll get it eventually.

Too busy seeing the shrub for the forest, it appears.

There’s nothing to “get” other than we don’t need someone bleating about Trump every other thread.

This thread isn’t about Trump. Leave the Trump hijack out of this thread.

[/moderating]

Could I publish a book entitled The Natural Approach to Conversion? Or maybe The Fabulous Way: Homeopathy and Homosexuality, which involves treatment with water containing highly diluted show tunes?

Regards,
Shodan

The state sanctioning employment guilds in such areas as medicine or law could be justified because the potential for harm is so great and after all the constitution is not a suicide pact.
However, chiropractors, homeopaths, organic farmers, vitamin dealers, etc. are all allowed to ply their trades and sell expensive placebos as long as they let people know they are not doctors and not engaging in medicine.

This is different because as you say, everyone in the state is banned from the practice regardless of what training they have or what claims they make for it. This despite the fact that the only harm the bill claims could be done is heightened anxiety and its not like gay people have never been anxious before. That tells me that singling out this one type of practitioner to outlaw is political. Those in power in California do not like the practice and that is the reason to ban it. It is an expression of raw political power and as such is obviously unconstitutional.

Organic farmers have to make disclaimers that they’re not doctors? Chiropractors? Health books and magazines regarding vitamin recommendations? Where did you get that from? I’ve never seen disclaimers like that in books or magazines.

Which part of the Constitution prohibits the expression of raw political power? :confused: