[QUOTE=Magiver]
WTH are you talking about? There’s nothing artificial about the power plant shortage in CA. Power regulation is a state function and CA has been in a tailspin because every Governor since Davis has dropped the ball. Tell me when the last power plant was built in CA?
[/QUOTE]
That has nothing to do with the rolling blackouts. The rolling blackouts were due to out of state suppliers like Enron screwing with the supply of electricity and gas. That’s why they occurred during a period of low electricity demand, but went away despite demand increasing. That’s why the rolling blackouts went away so fast before new power plants being built; it was an artificial shortage. They ran plants at below capacity, they strategically shut down plants for “maintenance”; they diverted electricity elsewhere, all in an successful attempt to artificially create a shortage and raise prices.
[QUOTE=jtgain]
This reminds me back in the late 80s of the debate they had when they were talking about banning smoking on airplanes.
IMPOSSIBLE! Many people screamed. Passengers will simply go in the bathroom and smoke, and possibly cause fires on the toilet paper and paper towels. They fixed that pretty quick: Install smoke detectors in the bathrooms and make simple tampering with the detectors a federal felony punishable by 10 years in the joint.
I see this going the same way. The thermostat would have some kind of sensor which would detect an immediate heat source and if someone was found with a lightbulb near it: then off to the pokey for you..
[/QUOTE]
If its the same idea that I heard , the calfornians will have their thermostats adjusted by am FM radio signal. A faraday cage would suffice for this.
Declan
[QUOTE=jtgain]
This reminds me back in the late 80s of the debate they had when they were talking about banning smoking on airplanes.
IMPOSSIBLE! Many people screamed. Passengers will simply go in the bathroom and smoke, and possibly cause fires on the toilet paper and paper towels. They fixed that pretty quick: Install smoke detectors in the bathrooms and make simple tampering with the detectors a federal felony punishable by 10 years in the joint.
I see this going the same way. The thermostat would have some kind of sensor which would detect an immediate heat source and if someone was found with a lightbulb near it: then off to the pokey for you..
[/QUOTE]
And does your magic sensor sense a register that’s closed off. That’s how I regulate the temerature in my upstairs rooms. I control the vents in the lower level to fool the thermostat.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
That has nothing to do with the rolling blackouts. The rolling blackouts were due to out of state suppliers like Enron screwing with the supply of electricity and gas. That’s why they occurred during a period of low electricity demand, but went away despite demand increasing.
[/QUOTE]
They went away after peak-use generators were installed the following year. And now they aren’t keeping up with demand. Try again.
[QUOTE=Magiver]
They went away after peak-use generators were installed the following year. And now they aren’t keeping up with demand. Try again.
[/QUOTE]
If this is the case, then I’m going to ask my questions again: why did LA not suffer from rolling blackouts during the crisis, and why isn’t anyone projecting rolling blackouts for LA now? Unless someone can provide a coherent explanation of why LA’s power situation seems so dissimilar to the deregulated utilities, I’m going to continue to believe that the power crisis was artificially manufactured.
[QUOTE=John Mace]
If that’s the other choice, then I stand with my original 2 as the only viable ones.
Anyway, I wasn’t necessarily advocating the proposal, but controlling someone’s thermostat isn’t as weird as it sounds when you consider that we already do much worse-- ie, shut the electricity off completely. Controlling the thermostat would be a less intrusive effort on the part of the government, if the “shut it off completely” option is still on the table.
[/QUOTE]
I don’t know, is it the government that shuts the power off completely in the existing situation?
[QUOTE=Carol Stream]
I don’t know, is it the government that shuts the power off completely in the existing situation?
[/QUOTE]
Well, it’s PG&E*, which is not technically “the government”, but they are a public utility heavily regulated (since they’re a monopoly) so I don’t think there’s much of a difference here. What You Need to Know About Blackouts
*in NorCal, which is where I live. I guess it’s Southern California Edison in the southern part of the state.
A friend of mine lives in Austin, TX and they signed up for a program that gave them a programmable thermostat and allows the electric company to shut off their air conditioner for 10 minutes every 1/2 hour during the hours of 4-8 pm from June -September if the electric company needs to control peak usage. (not on holidays or weekends) She said that by the time you realized the air conditioner had been shut off, it was coming back on again. They still offer that program.
[QUOTE=Magiver]
They went away after peak-use generators were installed the following year. And now they aren’t keeping up with demand. Try again.
[/QUOTE]
They went away because inducing them became politically unacceptable, and Enron got in legal trouble. Installing generators had nothing to do with it.
[QUOTE=pudytat72]
A friend of mine lives in Austin, TX and they signed up for a program that gave them a programmable thermostat and allows the electric company to shut off their air conditioner for 10 minutes every 1/2 hour during the hours of 4-8 pm from June -September if the electric company needs to control peak usage. (not on holidays or weekends) She said that by the time you realized the air conditioner had been shut off, it was coming back on again. They still offer that program.
[/QUOTE]
IIRC, that program offers substantial incentives, too. But the key is that it’s voluntary.
[QUOTE=silenus]
If I have the thermostat set at 72º, and the State decides that it should be set at 80º, then I have to convince it that it is really 80º in the house. Put a lightbulb under the thermostat and it raises the microtemperature quite a bit.
[/QUOTE]
And what’re you going to do when California bans the sale of incandescent lightbulbs, Mr. Smart Guy?
It’s stuff like this that puts me in hysterics when people talk about forcing everyone to switch electrics or plug-in hybrids. Sorry, guys, but the freakin’ grid can’t take it, and until folks are willing to shell out the kind of cabbage needed to upgrade it, large numbers of folks with such vehicles is a bad idea.
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan]
And what’re you going to do when California bans the sale of incandescent lightbulbs, Mr. Smart Guy?
[/QUOTE]
Bootleg some from Mexico, most likely. Or park a cat on top of it. Or offer one of my sophomores $20 to hack the bloody thing.
To the barricades, mon enfants!
I don’t know a lot about how power is supplied in our country other than basic facts.
Isn’t the problem that California simply has too many people creating too much demand on an aging, undersupplied power infrastructure coupled with CA’s largely hot climate…along with CA being a liberal state that overly-regulates emissions and that the state is hamstrung by emissions goals that fly in the face of the solution to the problem, which is creating more electricity?
Are nuclear plants out of the question in CA?
What’s the deal?
Here’s the Wiki article on the deregulation crisis in California. According to it, the blame lies primarily on a poorly designed deregulation scheme combined with illegal market manipulation by energy producers. It also makes the following statement:
[QUOTE=wiki]
In the summer of 2000 a drought in the northwest states reduced the amount of hydroelectric power available to California. Though at no point during the crisis was California’s sum of [actual electric-generating capacity]+[out of state supply] less than demand, California’s energy reserves were low enough that during peak hours the private industry which owned power-generating plants could effectively hold the State hostage by shutting down their plants for “maintenance” in order to manipulate supply and demand. These critical shutdowns often occurred for no other reason than to force California’s electricity grid managers into a position where they would be forced to purchase electricity on the “spot market”, where private generators could charge astronomical rates. Even though these rates were semi-regulated and tied to the price of natural gas, the companies (which included Enron and Reliant Energy) controlled the supply of natural gas as well. Manipulation by the industry of natural gas prices resulted in higher electricity rates that could be charged under the semi-regulations.
[/QUOTE]
If this is correct, then it explains why LA never suffered rolling blackouts–the lack of power was wholly artificial. It cites a FERC report as its backup. Anybody else have different information?
[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil]
I don’t know a lot about how power is supplied in our country other than basic facts.
Isn’t the problem that California simply has too many people creating too much demand on an aging, undersupplied power infrastructure coupled with CA’s largely hot climate…along with CA being a liberal state that overly-regulates emissions and that the state is hamstrung by emissions goals that fly in the face of the solution to the problem, which is creating more electricity?
Are nuclear plants out of the question in CA?
What’s the deal?
[/QUOTE]
I think it’s a little more complicated than that. If I remember correctly CA deregulated power companinies in one direction. They could compete by charging less but not more. It’s impossible to force a company to lose money. In Ohio, like most states, there is a public utility commission that approves rate hikes. The utility companies have to plead their case and if they try to pull a fast one they get dinged. So far it’s worked well. in my part of the state. not sure if the NE has as stable a power grid as the SW. I do know that any hint of shortage in my area and I will get my pitchfork out and march on city hall. I’ve kept an eye on it over the years and they’re talking about what to do with the plant that feeds my area. We dropped a number of smaller plants for a larger one and made up the difference in peak plants. So far we haven’t stressed the peak generators. We did have a nuclear plant get treehugged into a coal plant before it was finished. What a bunch of dumbasses. A lot of the nuclear power plant equipment would have been built in Ohio.
[QUOTE=BrightNShiny]
If this is correct, then it explains why LA never suffered rolling blackouts–the lack of power was wholly artificial. It cites a FERC report as its backup. Anybody else have different information?
[/QUOTE]
I’ll also add this:
There’s quite a bit more available via Google, but the point remains: the 2000-2001 CA energy “crisis” was manufactured.
[QUOTE=John Mace]
Well, it’s PG&E*, which is not technically “the government”, but they are a public utility heavily regulated (since they’re a monopoly) so I don’t think there’s much of a difference here. What You Need to Know About Blackouts
[/QUOTE]
No matter how much they are regulated, PG&E is not the government, technically, or otherwise. Lest we forget, the government exists to secure our rights.
[QUOTE=Carol Stream]
Lest we forget, the government exists to secure our rights.
[/QUOTE]
Lets not forget the other stuff:We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
There was a substantial portion of the energy crisis in California that can be blamed on a very poorly implemented scheme for setting rates, as Magiver above mentions. I can’t really talk about it - not because it’s secret, but because a few months ago I sat through a 2-hour presentation by a man who did nothing but study the whole thing for 3 years (it was like sitting through an episode of Numbers) and at the end of it all my brain hurt. LADWP did a good job of isolating themselves from the worst of the mess.
[QUOTE=askeptic]
Lets not forget the other stuff:We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
[/QUOTE]
The government reaching into my living room to set the thermostat is completely outside of what the Constitution provides for.