"California's day of reckoning is here."

Chill out, ese. I was just mocking you. In fact, I barely mentioned the Mexican-American war, other than implying that political parties that ceased to exist 150 years ago dominate message boards.

I see you’ve added yet another Souplantation “example.” I’ll counter it with another Steve story and see if you can catch the point.

I see fat Steve at a fast food joint, and he just throws his trash on the ground when he’s done. This kind of stuff has to stop, so I stew about it a couple of days and propose that we charge everyone who’s overweight an additional 2 dollars for fast food so that they pay for all the extra trash they throw on the ground. The city council refuses to implement it, saying, “I fail to see a connection between your multitude of anecdotes and any trend in the larger populace.”

I would also like to point out that I do not oppose immigration, as long as it is done in a legal and orderly manner. We have set up a horrendous situation, where we have no control over who comes into the country. This is more than just a budgetary issue, it is a national security issue. We have created a market for more immigrant labor than we legally allow. This is unfair to us, unfair to them, and unsustainable in the long run.

If we feel the need for these people, expand the INS so that we can legally process those we need, check their backgrounds so we aren’t letting criminals or terrorists into the country, and so that we have some way of keeping track of them, and see to it that they are given the knowledge of our laws and culture so that they can be an asset and not a liability. You and I can’t exist in a shadow world where we don’t have a social security number, avoid taxes, and obtain benefits with fraudulent documentation, but they can and regularly do. Again, I would love to see how some of the apologists feel about the issue when they find out that someone has been using THEIR social security number for all their transactions.

The current situation punishes employers that follow the law in terms of hiring. A contractor that pays illegals low wages under the table is always going to be at a competitive advantage over one who follows the law, and soon the guy who plays by the rules will be out of business, and the guy who picks up his labor force down in front of the U-Haul will be sitting pretty, even as he exploits the low wages those folks can ask. This situation is unfair to the workers and the law abiding businessman. And those U-hual guys don’t have health insurance, or disability, or anything, so when something happens, it is off to the ER to rack up bills that will never be paid. That is why all the hospitals are going broke and the trauma centers are closing. Remember that when you or someone you love dies in an ambulance because it now takes twice as long to get to an appropriate facility!

The fact is, however, that most of these folks are illiterate in two languages, possess very few skills, and even if they do pay taxes beyond sales tax on the few taxable items they purchase, they are in a very low income bracket, so really don’t pay much anyway, and most of the things they spend income on are exempt from even sales tax because there is no sales tax on rent or food, which is where a majority of their income goes. But- the moment they have a baby on US soil, they become eligible for all kinds of benefits!

Do we really want to import the all peasants of the world who care to make the trip? Is there any limit to the number? The answer is that there is no limit. The third world has six dozen folks who would love to come here and put their face in the trough for every US citizen that makes a decent living and pays a significant amount in taxes. At what point do we say enough? Because, if we don’, at some point say enough, the limit will be that people will stop coming when the US is just as big a craphole as the places they are coming from, and at that point our country will be ruined.

I know that there are bleeding hearts out there who feel that outcome would be just fine, and that we are a bunch of overprivileged greedbags, and that the world would be more “fair” if every country were brought down to the same level, but I do not feel that way. What is happening in California is a preview, just a small taste, of what is to come for the entire country if we don’t regain control of our borders and regulate immigration in a way that is fair to the immigrants and to our advantage as a nation.

Except that I don’t notice fat people tending to be litterbugs in the fast food place. I do notice that the illegals seem to have a different code of morality. It is a known fact that corruption is rampant at all levels of society in Mexico and in many Latin American and for that matter non Latin American third world countries. They bring those values with them and it is noticeable, at least to me, on a daily basis. Look, I live with Latinos, my roommate has Costa Rican ancestry, and most of the folks on my street are of Mexican or Central American descent, but this isn’t the barrio here, it is more upwardly mobile, second or third or more generation, so they do share our values. In fact, it might surprise some to know that there are Hispanics who never had to immigrate because their families were here before California was admitted to the union! If my roommate’s daughter pulled a stunt like that kid with the table cards, which she would NOT because she knows better, she would be corrected, and fast.

The melting pot only melts, if there is enough melted queso in there already to transfer the heat. If you dump a bunch of cheese into a hot pan that is empty, it’s gonna scorch. As it is, there are large sections of LA where little or no English is spoken, or needed, and have become exactly like parts of Mexico, and if you want to talk litter, head on down there and you will see it. I lived down in the barrio before and that corn cob from the street vendor’s illegal cart hits the pavement at exactly the spot where the last bite was taken!

And if you really want to get technical, go talk to my girlfriend, who is Cheyenne Native American! She will tell all you part-spanish half-breeds to GTFO! Except she wouldn’t. She is smart enough to know that that was then and this is now, and she doesn’t speak Cheyenne or Spanish, or any of that crap, and she considers herself to be from the United States.

I am half Irish, and years ago the English treated my ancestors like crap, but one of my best friends is English. All this crap happened before anyone living today was even born. Sensible people realize this and get on with life. Others go to university and major in Chicano studies so they can pick the scab… :rolleyes:

So illegal immigrants who are not happy with the country they are living in should feel free to attach the area they live in to another country?

I don’t think you know as much about the war as you’d like to think you do.

Yes, after all, over indulging spoiled children is a vice TOTALLY UNKNOWN among real ( aka white ) Americans.

And what makes you think that it’s illegal immigrants that are more likely to do that ? And many of them do pay taxes, including into Social Security, which they’ll never benefit from.

Yeah, suuuure it is. Our stupid for-profit health care system and general economic problems have nothing to do with that ( to the extent that it’s actually happening ).

It rather underlines your attitude that you define “being exploited as cheap labor under bad conditions” as “put their face in the trough”.

“Day of reckoning?” Out of a guy who takes any opportunity offered to quote or refer to one of his movies? What’s wrong with “Judgment Day?”

Such a threat. Why are conservatives so easily frightened?

Wow. You may want to get out and meet some Mexican-Americans. You’re really sounding ignorant here.

These weren’t Mexican-Americans, they were Mexican-Mexicans.

And you knew that how ? The label on their foreheads ?

And it’s still a silly attempt to bash them, whatever group they were a part of. Indulging spoiled brats is NOT behavior that is especially rare among Americans.

The US armed forces were on Mexican fucking land. How would a hostile invasion force due on US soil? How would a Cherokee uprising went after the US brutally murdered thousands of their people?

Seriously? You’re going to get on your high horse about a population that engaged in ethnic cleansing and genocide against the natives?

Justice only applies to the lives of white men? Brown men are subhumans? Get your KKK “history” out of here. Racists should punched be in the kidneys till they die because of the hateful human trash they choose to be.

A war of conquest that is. The only support in Congress for the war during the time was slave states looking to gain alleys to preserve slavery.

Moral slime. The Mexican war of conquest and expansion to the sea was fought on behalf of the most vile trash the US had to offer.

Your state exists because some vile repulsive fuckers, among other brutalities, wanted to preserve the “right” to rape 13 year old girls ,force people to work endless days in the hot sun with barely water and food, and whip, beat and torture them at a whim.

Yea down the barrel of a gun. “Here’s $10. Give me your car or I kill you”.

If Japan paid some paltry some for it’s conquered area of China would that have legitimized it?

Better a lefty professor then the inbred illiterate KKK wannabe you’ve been listening too. If this is an example of the California education system then you’ve certainly made a good argument it needs fixing.

False. I’ve worked with illegals. They get taxes taken out just like you and me. Usually under an assumed name. They’re also less likely to use services for fear of getting caught.

It probably wouldn’t hurt to get to know some of them too.

Now you are just making me hungry.

You have a system in California where 34% is greater than 66%. That is an extremists dream come true - to be able to veto the majority will. Until that is fixed, its all just about the details.

Both of these statements can be true with the same level of competence and dedication of the public employees.

I’ve been shouted down in my every attempt to discuss the stupidity of Prop 13 in the last 30 years. This is a textbook case of the law of unintended consequences. Replacing a tax system which caused people who’d made large gains on their real estate purchases to pay taxes proportional to that value with a tax system that levied unbalanced taxes on next door neighbors for the same services, while preventing the legislature from increasing taxes without a supermajority, sent the state begging for a smackdown from the forces of reality.

As noted in another current thread, I am middle-aged and childless. Despite having no kids to raise, I wish they would tax us enough to adequately fund public schools. I know there are inefficiencies in the system, but these kids are going to be running the place in a few years, and I’d like them to be educated and prosperous. Good luck finding a state or country that offers prosperity and safety to its citizens without taxing them.

States regulate their public utilities not the Federal Government. Between California’s PUCO and enviromentalist they failed to build power plants to meet rising needs. All those slave labor Mexicans needed energy.

Garbage. The “energy crisis” was artificially created when California was stupid enough to deregulate. Power and gas was deliberately undersupplied by out of state suppliers like Enron to extort money out of the state, and the FERC - a FEDERAL agency - refused to do it’s job. Which is why it magically went away when the truth started to come out.

To quote my favorite t-shirt, “Still no Stanfordium”. (rimshot)

Power flows across state lines. PUCO urgently requested FERC intervention, and got laughed at. You might remember the tapes of the Enron folks laughing about ripping off Granny?

You also might want to explain to us why the outage problem suddenly disappeared when Enron went bankrupt. Perhaps the power of the markets magically created new plants?

they didn’t disappear because Enron went bankrupt. They dissappeared because they built a bunch of peak use generators as a stop gap measure. I remember this clearly because Grey Davis stood in front of one of them (after the crisis) announcing the new power plants they were building.

We did this in my area years ago. Our aging power coal plant was torn down and the load shifted to a regional power plant. In place of the power plant they built 7 peak-use generators. It took them 6 months to build.

The power outages in California were predicted a year in advance. That information made it to the level of national news. At the time I thought they would simply build the peak-use generators and everything would be fine. It didn’t happen. A year went by and the predicted shortages occured. It was only then that they built the peak-use generators. This was 100% the fault of the PUCO.