# Call a spade, a spade, and a liar, a liar. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 6, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/call-a-spade-a-spade-and-a-liar-a-liar/838258 "2019-08-06T17:36:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/call-a-spade-a-spade-and-a-liar-a-liar/838258/1 "2019-08-06T17:36:33Z")
I kind of figure my response would earn me a warning in GD, so I’m putting it here instead. > [@So what will it take for there to be serious gun control debate?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-will-it-take-for-there-to-be-serious-gun-control-debate/838166/229): > > Gun control simply doesnt work- it can’t work to reduce mass killings. Stop lying. Stop with the fucking lies. Why the hell are you fucking lying to defend policies that kill thousands of people a year? Does it make you feel good or something? Gun control works in dozens of other countries. It works, because we can ALL see that it works. The statistics prove it every single day. Saying it “simply doesnt work” is nothing but a bald faced dirty lie. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/call-a-spade-a-spade-and-a-liar-a-liar/838258/2 "2019-08-06T17:41:26Z")
100% agree. The only way gun control “can’t” work is if you start with the assumption that gun control won’t actually limit guns. It’s at best an unimaginative view of the possibilities, and much more likely an intentional framing of the issue designed to close off options distasteful to **DrDeth** and others. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/call-a-spade-a-spade-and-a-liar-a-liar/838258/3 "2019-08-06T17:44:48Z")
Gun control only works if you do it really, \*\*\*really \*\*\*hard. If you have 300 million guns in the nation, reducing it by a whopping 90 percent still leaves you with 30 million guns. All it takes is one or a few for a killing spree. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/call-a-spade-a-spade-and-a-liar-a-liar/838258/4 "2019-08-06T17:51:27Z")
I just bought one of these a couple of days ago: [Make Lying Wrong Again](https://smile.amazon.com/Lying-Resist-Racism-Anti-Trump-T-Shirt/dp/B07V8884GJ/ref=pd_rhf_ee_p_img_5?_encoding=UTF8&refRID=FXTCYSP27KAV37G78GHF&customId=B07537PB3M&th=1&psc=1) shirt. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/call-a-spade-a-spade-and-a-liar-a-liar/838258/5 "2019-08-06T18:12:46Z")
And the evidence usually presented is that the US states with strong gun control still have a lot of gun violence. Which argument is nonsense because _no_ US state has strong gun control, because people like **DrDeth** won’t allow it. **Velocity** , even if the US did come to their senses, it’d take a long time for gun control to work. But eventually, those remaining guns would get lost, or wear out, or confiscated after a crime, or be inherited by people who don’t want to be grabbing them, or genuinely sink in lakes, or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/call-a-spade-a-spade-and-a-liar-a-liar/838258/6 "2019-08-06T18:25:53Z")
Okay, so maybe it might take a long time to clear the guns out but stopping all sales of ammo would make that happen a lot sooner. Toys are no fun if you can’t play with them, and an unloaded gun is, at best, an awkward bludgeon. Fine, sell rifle ammo for hunting but microstamp every goddamned bullet and register the owner to the ammo such that if any of those bullets ends up where they don’t belong the registered owner is criminally liable right alongside the person who shot the offending round. Seems like that would work fairly briskly. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/call-a-spade-a-spade-and-a-liar-a-liar/838258/7 "2019-08-06T18:50:42Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Gun control only works if you do it really, \*\*\*really \*\*\*hard. If you have 300 million guns in the nation, reducing it by a whopping 90 percent still leaves you with 30 million guns. All it takes is one or a few for a killing spree. Right, but stopping the flow of guns into the hands of criminals would slow the flow of guns into the hands of criminals If guns are more expensive, or they are harder to acquire, or their owners are actually held responsible for keeping track of them, then they will not as easily go into the hands of criminals. I can buy a gun on the black market cheaper than I can buy one in a gun store. No background check, no waiting period, no registration or anything. As long as that is the case, as long as it is that easy for a criminal to get a gun, then it will not change. You don’t need to get the guns out of people’s collections, you just need to make sure that they are actually responsible for the guns in their collections. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/call-a-spade-a-spade-and-a-liar-a-liar/838258/8 "2019-08-06T18:56:46Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I just bought one of these a couple of days ago: [Make Lying Wrong Again](https://smile.amazon.com/Lying-Resist-Racism-Anti-Trump-T-Shirt/dp/B07V8884GJ/ref=pd_rhf_ee_p_img_5?_encoding=UTF8&refRID=FXTCYSP27KAV37G78GHF&customId=B07537PB3M&th=1&psc=1) shirt. I couldn’t see the shirt because of my make-trump-into-kittens app, but I still like it. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/call-a-spade-a-spade-and-a-liar-a-liar/838258/9 "2019-08-06T21:41:33Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > Okay, so maybe it might take a long time to clear the guns out but stopping all sales of ammo would make that happen a lot sooner. Toys are no fun if you can’t play with them, and an unloaded gun is, at best, an awkward bludgeon. Fine, sell rifle ammo for hunting but microstamp every goddamned bullet and register the owner to the ammo such that if any of those bullets ends up where they don’t belong the registered owner is criminally liable right alongside the person who shot the offending round. Seems like that would work fairly briskly. Most gun enthusiasts are also into hand reloading as well. They don’t buy ammo. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/call-a-spade-a-spade-and-a-liar-a-liar/838258/10 "2019-08-06T21:51:42Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Most gun enthusiasts are also into hand reloading as well. They don’t buy ammo. There is truth to that. My dad does this (though he tells me it’s a pain and I think he usually doesn’t bother). Of course you can make this practice illegal, and many nations do, or at least heavily restrict it. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/call-a-spade-a-spade-and-a-liar-a-liar/838258/11 "2019-08-06T21:52:12Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Right, but stopping the flow of guns into the hands of criminals would slow the flow of guns into the hands of criminals Exactly. Even just _reducing_ the flow of guns into the hands of criminals means fewer criminals with guns. We banned drunk driving. Some people still drink and drive, and sober people also cause crashes. But that doesn’t mean banning drunk driving was ineffective. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/call-a-spade-a-spade-and-a-liar-a-liar/838258/12 "2019-08-06T21:59:59Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Most gun enthusiasts are also into hand reloading as well. They don’t buy ammo. I don’t believe this for one single instant, unless you True Scotsman “gun enthusiasts” so hard that they’re a negligible percentage of the population. > [@SmartAleq](#): > > Okay, so maybe it might take a long time to clear the guns out but stopping all sales of ammo would make that happen a lot sooner. Toys are no fun if you can’t play with them, and an unloaded gun is, at best, an awkward bludgeon. Fine, sell rifle ammo for hunting but microstamp every goddamned bullet and register the owner to the ammo such that if any of those bullets ends up where they don’t belong the registered owner is criminally liable right alongside the person who shot the offending round. Seems like that would work fairly briskly. And of course manufacturing unstamped ammo is a crime, and if an unstamped bullet that hasn’t been registered as sold to somebody is used in a crime, the manufacturer is considered criminally liable. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/call-a-spade-a-spade-and-a-liar-a-liar/838258/13 "2019-08-06T22:01:52Z")
God and Guns. A great many Americans profoundly believe in them. You can no more persuade most gun believers to give up their guns than you can persuade most religious people to give up their god. Profound belief is what it is – immune to facts and reason. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/call-a-spade-a-spade-and-a-liar-a-liar/838258/14 "2019-08-06T22:07:12Z")
“If we can’t completely stop something, then we might as well not do anything.” -Average gun control opponent ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/call-a-spade-a-spade-and-a-liar-a-liar/838258/15 "2019-08-06T22:19:47Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Most gun enthusiasts are also into hand reloading as well. They don’t buy ammo. Do you consider your average criminal to be a “gun enthusiast” for the purposes of this discussion? ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/call-a-spade-a-spade-and-a-liar-a-liar/838258/16 "2019-08-06T22:22:52Z")
Well, at least if we did ban guns, we would prove how delusional these gun loving twats are when they rave about how they need their guns in case they need to bring down the government. One of these folks tried to tell me that a backwoods ragged army once brought down the mightiest European power so that a new nation could become independent. So obviously it could happen again. I answered, “Oh yeah? Is France going to come in as an ally this time too?” He just glared at me. ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/call-a-spade-a-spade-and-a-liar-a-liar/838258/17 "2019-08-06T22:55:34Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > …If you have 300 million guns in the nation, reducing it by a whopping 90 percent still leaves you with 30 million guns… Plus, there’s [these](https://all3dp.com/1/3d-printed-gun-firearm-weapon-parts/), which I imagine would spawn a new movement of ammo control, ushering in a new wave of [these](https://taskandpurpose.com/ammo-expensive-heres-make). I wouldn’t consider the ironically named DrDeth’s opinion to be a lie, or even a falsehood. The human animal will do what ever it takes to sate their impulses, regardless of law or regulation. The US’s one and a quarter million violent felonies each year tend to bear that out. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/call-a-spade-a-spade-and-a-liar-a-liar/838258/18 "2019-08-06T23:12:30Z")
**Of course gun control works** - as has been said, we have plenty of countries where it does. It is fair to say that it will be a huge problem to get some Americans to accept gun control. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/call-a-spade-a-spade-and-a-liar-a-liar/838258/19 "2019-08-06T23:34:28Z")
> [@JohnBckWLD](#): > > Plus, there’s [these](https://all3dp.com/1/3d-printed-gun-firearm-weapon-parts/), which I imagine would spawn a new movement of ammo control, ushering in a new wave of [these](https://taskandpurpose.com/ammo-expensive-heres-make). > > I wouldn’t consider the ironically named DrDeth’s opinion to be a lie, or even a falsehood. The human animal will do what ever it takes to sate their impulses, regardless of law or regulation. The US’s one and a quarter million violent felonies each year tend to bear that out. And I’m betting that the number of people who would do that would be negligible. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2019, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/call-a-spade-a-spade-and-a-liar-a-liar/838258/20 "2019-08-06T23:42:32Z")
> [@JohnBckWLD](#): > > Plus, there’s [these](https://all3dp.com/1/3d-printed-gun-firearm-weapon-parts/), which I imagine would spawn a new movement of ammo control, ushering in a new wave of [these](https://taskandpurpose.com/ammo-expensive-heres-make). > > I wouldn’t consider the ironically named DrDeth’s opinion to be a lie, or even a falsehood. The human animal will do what ever it takes to sate their impulses, regardless of law or regulation. The US’s one and a quarter million violent felonies each year tend to bear that out. In the context of the original thread, it remains a lie, while your points here seem to be useful, there are not when one considers that in developed nations, with gun control, one important feature is for authorities to investigate and confiscate guns if people that should not have guns or weapons that are restricted happen to have them. > **[What it’s Like to Own Guns in a Country with Strict Gun Control](https://time.com/4172274/what-its-like-to-own-guns-in-a-country-with-strict-gun-control/)** > > An Australian gun lover debunks some myths > [@](#): > > A lot of people think there aren’t any guns in Australia any more, but there are. By some estimates there is one gun for every seven people. My local suburban pistol club has 300 members. My sons have been shooting since they were 12 and both have rifle and pistol licenses. > > It’s actually not that hard to own a gun. But you do have to have a genuine reason. You have to be a member of a target shooting club or a hunter and you have to prove it. For hunting, you can get written permission from a landowner who says you are hunting on his land. Or you can join a hunting club. Pistols [handguns], on the other hand, are heavily restricted. All applicants undergo a background check by the police and there is a mandatory 30 day cooling off period for all license applications, both long arms and pistols. Firearms safety training courses are mandatory as well. > [@](#): > > Another part of the law that changed is that the police can come to your house and inspect your storage. When we renovated our house, I built a room dedicated to my firearms collection. They’re all in large safes. All the ammunition is stored separately to the rifles and the pistols. If you have more than 15 or so pistols, you’ve got to have a monitored alarm. If someone were to break into my house, or into my gun room, an alarm would go off and the police would be notified immediately. > > The police are required to inspect your gun room. Since 1996, the police have inspected mine three or four times. While they can come randomly, they normally put a call through and we arrange an agreeable time to come in and inspect it. I’m happy for them to do it. I want them to see that it’s safe. > [@](#): > > When then Prime Minister John Howard proposed the gun law I marched like everybody else did in opposition to it. But I now fully endorse what he did. I didn’t like handing over my rifles, but at the end of the day, it’s a small price to pay not to have the nut-jobs walking through shopping centers and massacring innocent people. > > Australia is a great country. You can go hunting, you can go shooting. And as long as you hurt nobody and abide the law you can continue to do it. That to me is freedom. The idea of having people own guns with no concept of gun safety and no reason to have a gun? That is not my idea of freedom. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/call-a-spade-a-spade-and-a-liar-a-liar/838258.md?page=2)