# Calling a PhD "Doctor"....... **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 6, 2001, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-a-phd-doctor/53289 "2001-02-06T00:59:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sir\_Doris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@Sir\_Doris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Doris)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-a-phd-doctor/53289/41 "2001-02-08T14:40:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Katie \* > \*\* > Good point in some ways, but (over here in Britain, anyway) having a PhD means you’re a “real” doctor - MDs (MBChBs) are called doctor as a purely honorary title, since they don’t actually have a doctorate. It seems a bit unfair to accuse PhDs of misleading people when all they’re doing is using a title they have earned - it’s not their fault that this may be misinterpreted. \*\* Quite right, Katie. I had a ferret around a few medical and dental school web sites this morning and notice they are not terribly forthcoming about this, but do give themselves away by offering post grad and PhD courses. One of them was offering a taught PhD course, which to my mind rather defeats the purpose :rolleyes:. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-a-phd-doctor/53289/42 "2001-02-08T15:02:49Z")
Danielinthewolvesden: > [@](#): > > “Dr Laura” is getting quite close to that- as SOME of her advice is of the type that only a Psychologist should give. Daniel, you’re confusing the job of a psychologist with that of a counselor. She **does** have certification and license to practice marriage, family and child counseling. Apparently a degree in psychology is not necessary for this, at least not in California. ---
**Author:** ![Podkayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Podkayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Podkayne)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-a-phd-doctor/53289/43 "2001-02-08T15:22:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alphagene \* > _The Insider_, Dr. Jeffrey Wigand (PhD in biochem from SUNY Buffalo) is quite insistent on the use of the title. Especially after being called “Mr. Wigand”. Baby, I’d call Russell Crowe “His Most Illuminous Majesty” if that’s what he wants. Mmmm. . . Russell Crowe . . . I’m sorry. What were we talking about again? ---
**Author:** ![Edward\_The\_Head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@Edward\_The\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edward_The_Head)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-a-phd-doctor/53289/44 "2001-02-08T15:42:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alphagene \* > Dr. Henry “Indiana” Jones Would that be Jr, or Sr? 😃 Both of my in-laws are PhDs though neither is ever called Dr. at least not by me. I also worked in a lab with a number of PhDs and none ever wanted to be called Dr either. ---
**Author:** ![Alphagene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Alphagene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alphagene)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-a-phd-doctor/53289/45 "2001-02-08T17:02:52Z")
Henry Sr. wasn’t nicknamed “Indiana”. They named the _dog_ Indiana. 😃 Actually, to confuse things, Indy’s father is listed as “Professor Henry Jones, Sr.”, while his son is “Dr.” at the IMDB. Anyway, most people don’t call their in-laws or their coworkers by _any_ title. If you are on a first-name basis with someone, using Dr. (like Mr.) in casual conversation is a bit stilted. I’m not suggesting that PhDs should be called Doctor all the time, only that it’s generally a good idea to use “Doctor” rather than something like “Mister” when the situation calls for the use of a title. Or Miss Jackson, even if you’re nasty. ---
**Author:** ![Andy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aeb1de/32.png) [@Andy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-a-phd-doctor/53289/46 "2001-02-08T17:14:01Z")
I don’t go out of my way to inform people that my correct title should be doctor (of the Ph.D. kind), it is often just embarrassing, but if people insist on _not_ using some combination of my given names and continually refer to me as mister, then I do inform them that they’re wrong. I mean, how difficult is it to call me Andy? If the situation really warrants the use of titles, be they mister, miss, missus, etc, then I feel I earned the use of my title. They’ll just have to hope that they have a big door to get my head out:D ---
**Author:** ![JubilationTCornpone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee59a6/32.png) [@JubilationTCornpone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JubilationTCornpone)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-a-phd-doctor/53289/47 "2001-02-08T17:21:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Edward The Head \* > \*\* > Both of my in-laws are PhDs though neither is ever called Dr. at least not by me. I also worked in a lab with a number of PhDs and none ever wanted to be called Dr either. \*\* No surprise there. There are Ph.D.'s who don’t insist on the title – at least, not in a social context. I suspect that they would balk at being called “Mr. Smith” or “Ms. Smith” though. In my experience, they would rather be called by their first name or full name. Besides, that still doesn’t make it inappropriate to call them “doctor.” What they _prefer_ to be called and what they’re _appropriately_ called are two different matters. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-a-phd-doctor/53289/48 "2001-02-08T17:48:47Z")
In practice the rules are fairly simple. In a professional context, the title ‘Dr’ is important because, whether one is a medical doctor, an astrophysicist or marine biologist, it denotes that one has some sort of professional credentials. The rule that those with PhDs did not use the title socially dates back to a time not that long ago (late nineteenth/early twentieth century) when the decree was new and it was unusual even for academics to have one. Now that it is far more common, the rule has clearly relaxed, although in a society which is increasingly uncomfortable with strict rules for etiquette, no one is quite sure what the precise rule is nor is anyone likely to be offended by how it is applied. On all other occasions we are happy to be called by our first and second names, just like everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![JubilationTCornpone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee59a6/32.png) [@JubilationTCornpone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JubilationTCornpone)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-a-phd-doctor/53289/49 "2001-02-08T18:07:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alphagene \* > \*\* > Besides, pop culture is full of references to non-MDs with the title “Doctor”. I mean correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think any of the following are MDs **or** DOs: > > Dr. Henry “Indiana” Jones > Dr. No > Dr. Who > Dr. Octopus > Dr. Bruce Banner > Dr. Dre (kidding, kidding) > \*\* Kidding? You mean the Dre really _is_ a physician? (heh, heh) Anyway, you forgot the following: Dr. Zachary Smith (_Lost in Space_) Dr. Theophilus (_Buck Rogers in the 25th Century_) Doctors Egon Spangler, Peter Venkman and Ray Stantz (_Ghostbusters_) Dr. Ruth Westheimer (Her doctorate is in Education.) Of course, in addition to Doctors Octopus and Banner, there are also a bunch of lesser-known comic book non-MD doctors (Henry Pym, Victor von Doom, Ray Palmer, etc). > [@](#): > > **Anyway, calling a PhD “Mr.” under any circumstances is rather disrespectful.** Darn right! ---
**Author:** ![djbdjb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@djbdjb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/djbdjb)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-a-phd-doctor/53289/50 "2001-02-08T19:43:12Z")
I think this should be ther ordering of degrees for which we use the term Dr., from normal to pompous: M.D., PhD, J.D. , Doctor of Divinity (DD?), Doctor of Education, honorary PhD. I was going to put in a little jab at Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., thinking that his doctor was either honorary or DD, but I see had a PhD, so I’m a little abashed. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2001, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-a-phd-doctor/53289/51 "2001-02-08T19:55:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Katie \* > \*\*Good point in some ways, but (over here in Britain, anyway) having a PhD means you’re a “real” doctor - MDs (MBChBs) are called doctor as a purely honorary title, since they don’t actually have a doctorate. It seems a bit unfair to accuse PhDs of misleading people when all they’re doing is using a title they have earned - it’s not their fault that this may be misinterpreted. \*\* Which brings to mind another question, hope you’ll forgive me for asking one based on a TV program: In the episode of _ER_ where we first meet British physician Dr. Corday, she meets (as I recall) Peter Benton, a surgeon. The others call him “Dr. Benton” and she says something to the effect of, “Oh, so you call your surgeons ‘Doctor’ over here?” Is there some title/term other than “Doctor” used for surgeons in the UK? ---
**Author:** ![Katie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a4c791/32.png) [@Katie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katie)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-a-phd-doctor/53289/52 "2001-02-09T13:36:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > One of them was offering a taught PhD course, which to my mind rather defeats the purpose :rolleyes:. > \*\* I thought PhDs couldn’t be granted for taught courses - to get a PhD you have to do original research (although you might have to receive some teaching in order to carry out the research). Anyone know if this is right? ---
**Author:** ![Katie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a4c791/32.png) [@Katie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katie)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-a-phd-doctor/53289/53 "2001-02-09T13:41:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Max Torque \* > > Which brings to mind another question, hope you’ll forgive me for asking one based on a TV program: > > In the episode of _ER_ where we first meet British physician Dr. Corday, she meets (as I recall) Peter Benton, a surgeon. The others call him “Dr. Benton” and she says something to the effect of, “Oh, so you call your surgeons ‘Doctor’ over here?” Is there some title/term other than “Doctor” used for surgeons in the UK? \*\* Oops - didn’t see this before posting the last reply. In the UK if you pass the Royal College of Surgeons surgical exams you are called Mr or Mrs or Ms again. Most of the people who have sat their surgical exams are consultants or senior registrars, so a junior doctor on a surgical team is still “doctor”. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Doris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@Sir\_Doris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Doris)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-a-phd-doctor/53289/54 "2001-02-09T14:40:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Katie \* > \*\* > I thought PhDs couldn’t be granted for taught courses - to get a PhD you have to do original research (although you might have to receive some teaching in order to carry out the research). Anyone know if this is right? \*\* I always thought so, but if you look here, there seems a lot more in it than a bit of research methods/skills [http://www.mds.qmw.ac.uk/opps/postgrad.shtml](http://www.mds.qmw.ac.uk/opps/postgrad.shtml) Maybe I’ve misunderstood, but I _do_ like winding up “real” doctors. I’ve discussed social use of the title with a few colleagues and we’re all pretty much agreed, that out of work it’s only used as to those that don’t extend common courtesy as a first resort, i.e. shorthand for “look, I’m not an airhead, so don’t treat me like one.” ---
**Author:** ![Ivorybill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ee59a6/32.png) [@Ivorybill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ivorybill)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-a-phd-doctor/53289/55 "2001-02-09T16:30:52Z")
The requirments for a PhD vary among schools and fields a bit and between countries a lot. In the US, some PhDs are required to take some classes and others no classes at all. My understanding of the situation in European countries is that no classes are ever required for the PhD. The biggest requirement for the degree is the dissertation, which usually (1) must prove that the candidate is capable of conducting original, independent research into a subject and (2) makes a “significant” contribution to the state of the knowlege in that subject. Can’t say what one must do to get an MD/PhD. Anybody? ---
**Author:** ![Katie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a4c791/32.png) [@Katie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katie)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-a-phd-doctor/53289/56 "2001-02-09T16:46:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sir Doris \* > > I always thought so, but if you look here, there seems a lot more in it than a bit of research methods/skills > > [http://www.mds.qmw.ac.uk/opps/postgrad.shtml](http://www.mds.qmw.ac.uk/opps/postgrad.shtml) > > \*\* Sounds like more teaching than I got on my MSc… BTW Sir Doris? Is that a reference to “The Big Knights?” ---
**Author:** ![JubilationTCornpone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee59a6/32.png) [@JubilationTCornpone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JubilationTCornpone)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-a-phd-doctor/53289/57 "2001-02-09T18:29:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sir Doris \* > \*\* > I’ve discussed social use of the title with a few colleagues and we’re all pretty much agreed, that out of work it’s only used as to those that don’t extend common courtesy as a first resort, i.e. shorthand for “look, I’m not an airhead, so don’t treat me like one.” \*\* I think it depends on what you mean by “use.” In my experience, most PhD’s do not describe _themselves_ as “Doctor” except in professional situations, or when they need to impress someone. However, they don’t consider it a social flub for _others_ to call them “Doctor” – although they may prefer to be called by their given names instead. Some PhD’s I know said that they’d be offended if someone were to call them “Mister \” despite their doctorates. I honestly can’t blame them. We would never treat physicians in that fashion, so why should we treat _real_ doctors with less respect? As an aside, MD’s seem to be more liberal in describing themselves as “Doctor \.” I’m not sure why, but I suspect that this is partly due to social conditioning and the tremendous prestige that goes with the medical profession. ---
**Author:** ![barton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@barton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barton)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2001, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-a-phd-doctor/53289/58 "2001-02-09T19:40:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alphagene \* > \*\*Besides, pop culture is full of references to non-MDs with the title “Doctor”. I mean correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think any of the following are MDs **or** DOs: > > Dr. Henry “Indiana” Jones > Dr. No > Dr. Who > Dr. Octopus > Dr. Bruce Banner > Dr. Dre (kidding, kidding) > > Anyway, calling a PhD “Mr.” under any circumstances is rather disrespectful. > > [Edited by Alphagene on 02-07-2001 at 10:21 PM] \*\* I believe the good Doctor (Dr. Who) actually has several medical degrees, if I remember an old episode correctly, though not necessarily from human civilizations. 😉 I dimly recall him saying he attended some 14th-15th century university in Italy. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-a-phd-doctor/53289/59 "2001-02-10T01:54:36Z")
\ ***Anyway, calling a PhD “Mr.” under any circumstances is rather disrespectful.** Darn right! \* Darn wrong. Neither I nor any other Ph.D. I know considers it disrespectful to call a Ph.D. “Mr.” or “Ms.” (or “Mrs.” or “Miss”, depending on preference) in a **social** situation. And Miss (Dr.?) Manners has put her imprimatur on this, at least for American usage: “it is never incorrect to call an American gentleman ‘Mr.’”, and I presume the equivalent holds true for ladies. I’m happy to address other people socially by whatever titles they prefer, but for them to consider it “disrespectful” to be addressed by a perfectly honorable prefix that is simply a polite designation for **any** adult male or adult female really looks laughably puffed-up, IMHO. In a **professional** situation, on the other hand, I couldn’t agree more that people should always use correct academic and professional titles. I do not feel in any way disrespected in a **social** situation to be lumped together with other females irrespective of education or career—we’re all equal citizens of the social republic, and “Ms.” is no more degrading to me than it is to Ms. Jane Cashier who never finished high school. (I would be thrilled to blur the distinction even further and use a single standard title socially for males and females alike.) But when dealing with colleagues and others in the professional world, titles are badges of professional achievement, and ignoring them or using them incorrectly **is** rude. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2001, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-a-phd-doctor/53289/60 "2001-02-10T03:08:07Z")
I can’t believe how many replies are misunderstanding the OP. The question was NOT whether it’s okay for a PhD or other doctoral-level degree to use Doctor in full formal address (Dr. Cranky, for example). It most certainly is proper, according to everything I’ve ever read. The OP was asking, rather, about whether the solitary term “Doctor” in used in reference to PhDs. You know, how you might say to a physician, “Doctor, does this boil look infected?” Or, with a teacher, "Teacher, can I have a hall pass? Or “Pastor, I put the wrong denomination in the collection plate. Mind if I take a little change?” That sort of usage. In my experience, I’ve heard the term “Professor” used as a solitary term in the US, even if the person hadn’t attained full professor status. (“Professor, will this be on the test?”) But I’ve never heard the term “Doctor” used in this manner except for medical dcotors. It would certainly sound odd to me to hear it used in any other way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-a-phd-doctor/53289.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-a-phd-doctor/53289.md?page=4)