# Calling all archaeologists/anthropologists! Knitting: who came up with it and when? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 7, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871 "2011-08-07T22:02:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/1 "2011-08-07T22:02:26Z")
Knitting today and had a thought- who came up with it, and when? Obviously, there was spinning and weaving a very long time ago, but knitting and crochet must be more modern. Wiki says knitting originated in Egypt in around 1100-1400 CE. Which suggests a big window, and that no-one has really been bothered to do the research. Also- Egypt suggests cotton or linen as the first knitted materials, rather than wool, which seems odd. It seems to me that if every detail is known about farming and animal husbandry, surely someone should know what was done with the products? Whoever came up with knitting (whether needles or board) she must had had a very interesting mind to work it out. Anyone any further info? ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/2 "2011-08-07T22:51:01Z")
Why would knitting necessarily be more modern than weaving (I’ll give you spinning though)? If anything, I would guess that knitting predates weaving, the equipment needed is a lot less high tech. ---
**Author:** ![Cub\_Mistress](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea666f/32.png) [@Cub\_Mistress](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cub_Mistress)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/3 "2011-08-07T22:55:04Z")
I think the roots of knitting lie in the knotting of fishing nets. no cites, offhand. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/4 "2011-08-07T23:20:19Z")
It was most likely independently developed, like basket-weaving and pottery. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2011, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/5 "2011-08-07T23:57:01Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > Why would knitting necessarily be more modern than weaving (I’ll give you spinning though)? If anything, I would guess that knitting predates weaving, the equipment needed is a lot less high tech. Probably not. For one thing, there are no myths which mention knitting, while there are lots which mention weaving. Not solid evidence, to be sure, but suggestive that knitting was either more recent or so ubiquitous as to be not worth a mention - but if the latter were the case, we’d expect to see more fragments of knitted objects, along with woven ones. For another, there seems to be no ancient word for it. “To knit” first appears in English around 1400! Evidence seems to point to knitting being in existence in the Middle East, and perhaps Spain, earlier than that, but not by a whole lot, in the scheme of fabricworks. There is an earlier technique called nalbinding, which uses one needle instead of two, and is often confused with knitting, even by archeologists. True knitted artifacts don’t begin until about 1000 C.E. - Common Era, not even before the time of Christ. The late 1200’s are where knitting becomes more common - not just knitted artifacts, but portrayals of knitting in art and mentions in song. It wasn’t until the 1600’s though, that we find people knitting with wool! A really neat history of [knitting](http://knitty.com/ISSUEspring06/FEAThistory101.html)- much speculation here, but educated speculation. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/6 "2011-08-08T00:12:40Z")
i thought knitting would have the sourcing of wool as a prerequisite. and no, i never heard of knitted fish nets. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/7 "2011-08-08T00:15:53Z")
Wasn’t that lady in _Tale of Two Cities_ knitting? Madam Defarge IIRC??? something like that. It was actually a coded document recording the crimes of the Nobility. That was written mid 1800’s. Her coded knitting was later used at trials for the Guillotine. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/8 "2011-08-08T00:21:19Z")
i thought madame defarge’s knitting was purely symbolic. i know the knitters would informally count the number of heads that come out (during sydney carton’s execution.) ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/9 "2011-08-08T00:26:26Z")
It’s been thirty years since I read Tale of Two Cities. The main memory was that lady knitting, knitting all the time. It gave me the creeps when I read it. I thought there was a code in her knitting. But, that may be my bad memory. I need to reread Dickens someday. Anyway, it’s one of the few books I recall that features a character knitting. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/10 "2011-08-08T00:59:39Z")
Wikipedia is pretty reliable for this type of stuff, so it appears that not much is known about the origin: > [@](#): > > Early origins of knitting > > Knitting is a technique of producing fabric from a strand of yarn or thread. Unlike weaving, knitting does not require a loom nor other large equipment, making it a valuable technique for nomadic and non-agrarian peoples. > > The oldest artifact with a knitted appearance is a type of sock. It is believed that socks and stockings were the first pieces produced using techniques similar to knitting. These socks were worked in Nålebinding, a technique of making fabric by creating multiple knots or loops with a single needle and thread. Many of these existing clothing items employed nålebinding techniques; some of them look very similar to true knitting. For example, 3rd-5th century AD Romano-Egyptian toe-socks. Several pieces, done in now obscure techniques, have been mistaken for knitting or crocheting. > > Most histories of knitting place its origin somewhere in the Middle East, from where it spread to Europe by Mediterranean trade routes, and then to the Americas with European colonization.[2] The earliest known examples of knitting have been found in Egypt and cover a range of items, including complex colorful wool fragments and indigo blue and white cotton stockings, which have been dated between the 11th and 14th centuries CE.[3] ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/11 "2011-08-08T01:28:25Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > - Egypt suggests cotton or linen as the first knitted materials, rather than wool, which seems odd. Why does it suggest cotton or linen? We know that Egyptians farmed, and still farm, sheep, goats and camels for their hair. We have references to people in the Bible to people in Israel, right next door, making woolen garments 3, 000 years ago right through to the time of the Roman occupation. So how does an origin in Egypt 900 years ago suggest linen rather than wool? ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/12 "2011-08-08T01:51:41Z")
i find it incredible that a people (europeans) who live in a cold place, with plentiful sheep, will have to wait more than 1000 years before knitting is invented in the middle east and exported to them via romans/moors. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/13 "2011-08-08T02:33:45Z")
So no knitting before about the Battle of Hastings? Huh, well my ignorance has been fought. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/14 "2011-08-08T02:35:34Z")
that 1,000 years off my time frame. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/15 "2011-08-08T03:04:30Z")
“Sprang” is a type of fabric similar to knitting that pre-dates knitting. From: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprang](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprang) > [@](#): > > Sprang is an ancient method of constructing fabric that has a natural elasticity. Its appearance is similar to netting, but unlike netting sprang is constructed entirely from warp threads. Archaeological evidence indicates that sprang predates knitting; the two needlework forms bear a visible resemblance and serve similar functions but require different production techniques. > > Although examples of sprang have been unearthed from as early as the bronze age, sprang was almost entirely undocumented in written records until the late nineteenth century when archaeological finds generated interest in Europe. > > Fabric impressions from potsherds of northern Germany suggest that sprang originated in Europe during the neolithic period. It may have spread southward toward the Mediterranean during the iron age or possibly the late bronze age. The earliest surviving example of sprang is a hair net, c. 1400 B.C., that was recovered from a bog in Denmark. Most archaeological finds of sprang fabric come from the later classical era and early Dark Ages: ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/16 "2011-08-08T05:14:39Z")
Crochet for fishing nets, usually. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/17 "2011-08-08T06:13:33Z")
So, what did they use for Knitting Yarn in ye olde primitive days before Hobby Lobby? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/18 "2011-08-08T08:19:31Z")
An awful lot depends on definition: Is knitting something with two needles like today; something with one needle like crotchet; something that makes loops like nalbinding? Reading a book on knitting translated from English, I encountered the usual “knitted fabric found in Egyptian tombs, so it’s thousands of years old”, which is also told on the English Wikipedia site; but the German wikipedia site starts knitting in the 13th century when the Moslems brought steel needles into Spain. Apparently the first uses the definition of “fabric made with loops” (Similar to fisher nets) while the second uses the definition of “two needles”. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/19 "2011-08-08T08:23:15Z")
> [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > i find it incredible that a people (Europeans) who live in a cold place, with plentiful sheep, will have to wait more than 1000 years before knitting is invented in the middle east and exported to them via Romans/moors. Because they did other forms similar in the end product, like[crocheting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crochet) and [nalbinding](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A5lebinding). But then, a lot of techniques do take time to develop: for centuries, most people wore “skirts and dresses” (kilts, togas, cloaks) woven in one broad piece instead of trousers, because sewing trousers was so complicated and difficult that only a special group of people got them, although a cloak or toga is much more draughty in a cold climate than a good woolen trouser. Remember also that a lot of technical things, starting with simple things like the wheel all the way up to more complicated ones, did spread out from one region instead of being developed independently in several places. It’s much much easier to reverse-engineer or improve something you already have an idea of than invent something completely out of the blue. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/20 "2011-08-08T08:45:44Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Why does it suggest cotton or linen? We know that Egyptians farmed, and still farm, sheep, goats and camels for their hair. We have references to people in the Bible to people in Israel, right next door, making woolen garments 3, 000 years ago right through to the time of the Roman occupation. > > So how does an origin in Egypt 900 years ago suggest linen rather than wool? > [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > i find it incredible that a people (europeans) who live in a cold place, with plentiful sheep, will have to wait more than 1000 years before knitting is invented in the middle east and exported to them via romans/moors. Not that it’s definitive one way or t’other, but woolen garments may have been neither woven nor knitted - the simplest woolen fabric is felt. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871.md?page=2)