# Calling all archaeologists/anthropologists! Knitting: who came up with it and when? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 7, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871 "2011-08-07T22:02:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/21 "2011-08-08T09:18:42Z")
^ ah compressed and formed felt. still used today to make cowboy hats. at least we know that during the time of jason and the argonauts, sheep fleece was already used in gold mining in asia minor, and the method is still applied today. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/22 "2011-08-08T11:40:24Z")
Felting is still used for whole garments in some cases - I remember reading a National Geographic article about nomadic people of Mongolia making felt by spreading tufts of raw fleece onto a big sheet of leather, then wetting it and rolling it (Swiss roll style) around a pole which was then dragged across rough ground behind a horse. The bouncing and beating compressed the fleece into thick, greasy felt which could then be used for cloaks (Kepenek) and tents (yurt). ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/23 "2011-08-08T14:40:24Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Because they did other forms similar in the end product, like[crocheting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crochet) and [nalbinding](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A5lebinding). As far as anyone can tell, crocheting is a much younger craft than knitting, actually. Strangely to many, because crochet such a simple and flexible technique, there is no reference to anything matching the description of crochet before the early 19th century, nor has any older archaeological specimen of crocheted fabric ever been found. Sometimes when I’m making something in crochet or knit, I truly wonder at human ingenuity. I mean you take a string, you twist it back on itself just so, and in a bit you have clothes! How cool is that! **Mangetout** In “Farmer Boy” Alonzo Wilder describes his mother weaving wool, and felting it into big sheets to be cut for clothing. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/24 "2011-08-08T16:22:14Z")
> [@mac\_bolan00](#): > > i find it incredible that a people (europeans) who live in a cold place, with plentiful sheep, will have to wait more than 1000 years before knitting is invented in the middle east and exported to them via romans/moors. I’m not sure if knitted garments could as easily survive the harsh fulling process as woven fabrics could. Certainly \*sprang \*was used for various netting items, not clothes. Same with \*naelbinding \*- used for socks, not so much for cloaks. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/25 "2011-08-08T16:27:16Z")
Do we know if it was originally a man skill or a woman skill? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2011, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/26 "2011-08-08T16:30:59Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > But then, a lot of techniques do take time to develop: for centuries, most people wore “skirts and dresses” (kilts, togas, cloaks) woven in one broad piece instead of trousers, because sewing trousers was so complicated and difficult that only a special group of people got them, although a cloak or toga is much more draughty in a cold climate than a good woolen trouser. This argument might make sense if e.g. the Gaels didn’t typically wear trews \*before \*they took to kilts. Did they lose the knack of sewing? And most cold places where people wore cloaks, they wore hose or some sort of fitted legging. We’ve been sewing leg coverings since the stone ages.[Roman soldiers](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braccae) weren’t particularly special people. They wore trousers when they were too cold. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/27 "2011-08-09T00:13:48Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m not sure if knitted garments could as easily survive the harsh fulling process as woven fabrics could. Certainly \*sprang \*was used for various netting items, not clothes. Same with \*naelbinding \*- used for socks, not so much for cloaks. well, if you read harry potter, mrs. weasley knits her kids new sweaters every year. in iceland, they make new ones every year. but that’s not to say those knitted uppers don’t last. they do. some women don’t even bother to spin the wool: just twist a corner of the skein with thumb and forefinger and the whole thing turns into a ball of yarn. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/28 "2011-08-09T07:35:51Z")
Yeah, but believe me, I’d much rather wear my fulled wool cloak than my Fairisle when it’s really cold and pissing down. ---
**Author:** ![JBDivmstr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b4bc9f/32.png) [@JBDivmstr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBDivmstr)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/29 "2011-08-09T09:14:09Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Probably not. For one thing, there are no myths which mention knitting, while there are lots which mention weaving. Not solid evidence, to be sure, but suggestive that knitting was either more recent or so ubiquitous as to be not worth a mention - but if the latter were the case, we’d expect to see more fragments of knitted objects, along with woven ones. > > For another, there seems to be no ancient word for it. “To knit” first appears in English around 1400! Evidence seems to point to knitting being in existence in the Middle East, and perhaps Spain, earlier than that, but not by a whole lot, in the scheme of fabricworks. > > There is an earlier technique called nalbinding, which uses one needle instead of two, and is often confused with knitting, even by archeologists. True knitted artifacts don’t begin until about 1000 C.E. - Common Era, not even before the time of Christ. > > The late 1200’s are where knitting becomes more common - not just knitted artifacts, but portrayals of knitting in art and mentions in song. It wasn’t until the 1600’s though, that we find people knitting with wool! > > A really neat history of [knitting](http://knitty.com/ISSUEspring06/FEAThistory101.html)- much speculation here, but educated speculation. Thanks, WhyNot! 🙂 That’s a _ **very** _ interesting site. 🆒 I’m constantly amazed at the things that can be learned here at the SDMB. 😃 IMHO, the SDMB is\* without a doubt\*, one of **the** coolest sites on the Internet! ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/30 "2011-08-09T13:03:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m not sure if knitted garments could as easily survive the harsh fulling process as woven fabrics could. Certainly \*sprang \*was used for various netting items, not clothes. Same with \*naelbinding \*- used for socks, not so much for cloaks. Actually, it’s very easy to felt knitted or crocheted items. All it takes is very hot water and agitation. Because the felting procedure shrinks the item, it must be made 40% larger than the intended fitted product. For making large sheets of felted fabric for cutting, surely weaving is faster though. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/31 "2011-08-09T19:46:17Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Actually, it’s very easy to felt knitted or crocheted items. All it takes is very hot water and agitation. Felting is not synonymous with fulling, though. [Fulling](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulling)was quite a vigorous, physical process, much more so than just agitation. > [@](#): > > For making large sheets of felted fabric for cutting, surely weaving is faster though. Actually it’d be easiest just to make felt from unwoven wool, like the Mongols did. ---
**Author:** ![misling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ab097/32.png) [@misling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misling)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/32 "2011-08-09T20:59:34Z")
Re: Weaving requiring more equipment than knitting\> True to a degree, but the simplest weaving looms are very, very low tech. A beam hanging up (IE, thick branch of a tree), some string, and some weight at the bottom (rocks for each string, or another beam that all the strings tie to) are all that is necessary to build a vertical loom such as is used for rugs and tapestries in many countries still. A back strap loom is just a few sticks and some string, with the far end of the warp strings tied around a post or tree. A frame loom is not much fancier, just a rectangular frame with some nails or pegs across the top and bottom. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/33 "2011-08-11T07:41:46Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Do we know if it was originally a man skill or a woman skill? A woman’s skill, if you ask Freud, “based on an unconcious imitation of the way in which, at puberty, her matted pubic hair came to conceal her deficient genitals.” But, you know… That’s _Freud_. He _would_ say a thing like that, wouldn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/34 "2011-08-11T13:51:34Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Felting is not synonymous with fulling, though. [Fulling](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulling)was quite a vigorous, physical process, much more so than just agitation. I used a term incorrectly (felting referrs to transforming raw fleece into fabric, while fulling refers to applying the process to items made of yarn) but you are quite mistaken that there is any obstacle to fulling knitted garments. There is no reason a knitted object cannot be fulled. It is not as violent as process as you are making it out to be; it really depends on the fiber. Many fibers full very, very easily, to the point where if you knit a sock out of many wools, it will become fulled just by wearing it. Many people have accidentally fulled a sweater by putting it through a washing machine or dryer, where the heat and tumbling is more than sufficient to accomplish the job. The urine or fuller’s Earth was a cleaning agent, and not a direct part of the of the fulling process. The fulling was completed by trampling/stomping/agitation, as I stated. It is not destructive on knitting, except of course for lacework or other delicate “airy” handwork. However, as I also stated, it is also obvious to me that weaving large pieces of cloth for fulling, then cutting the fabric to need, is far more efficient than knitting a garment then fulling it. In addition to weaving being faster, you can never be 100% sure of how a made garment will shrink in the process. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/35 "2011-08-11T16:12:24Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > I used a term incorrectly (felting referrs to transforming raw fleece into fabric, while fulling refers to applying the process to items made of yarn) but you are quite mistaken that there is any obstacle to fulling knitted garments. There is no reason a knitted object cannot be fulled. It is not as violent as process as you are making it out to be; it really depends on the fiber. In the Middle Ages, with wool, it definitely was a violent process. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/36 "2011-08-11T16:27:54Z")
But your contention, that Europeans did not use knitting because knitted garments could not survive the fulling process, is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/37 "2011-08-11T17:25:14Z")
Actually, some time ago (last year?) I noticed the latest “fad” in wool stores is specially “felt-wool” where you knit an overlarge glove/ small purse/ sock and then felt it in your washing machine. This is funny because for decades, sheep’s wool treated so you could wash it in the specially soft wool cycle of your washing machine (instead of by hand, which is a bother) was the big invention in making woolen clothes (knitted and bought) a useful garment again instead of a pain; and now things are going opposite again, to sell specially untreated wool plus all new instruction books, because obviously you can’t simply use normal instructions and make things 20-30% bigger, no, spend money buying new stuff! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/38 "2011-08-11T19:17:43Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > But your contention, that Europeans did not use knitting because knitted garments could not survive the fulling process, is wrong. Knitted garments could not survive the fulling process as it was practiced then and there. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/39 "2011-08-11T19:19:59Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Knitted garments could not survive the fulling process as it was practiced then and there. I do not believe you are correct at all. My experience tells me there is absolutely no reason knitted garments could not survive the process, but a great many reasons why weaving is more efficient for the purpose of creating fulled fabric. I wonder what experience or knowledge tells you otherwise? Or why that statement, if true, is in any way significant to the adoption or non-adoption of knitwear? Most woolen knitting, historically, is not fulled, but is water repellant and insulating of its own accord. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2011, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871/40 "2011-08-12T05:14:05Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > I do not believe you are correct at all. My experience tells me there is absolutely no reason knitted garments could not survive the process Your experience as a modern knitter? What’s that got to do with anything? Do you routinely soak your knitting in stale urin, stomp on it and then stretch it between hooks? > [@](#): > > I wonder what experience or knowledge tells you otherwise? The experience of owning multiple handknitted jerseys that all unravelled as soon as one thread was loose. That includes heavy, lanolin-rich arans. That and I’ve visited a couple of museum mills in the UK, from what the exhibits show the process was not gentle. > [@](#): > > Or why that statement, if true, is in any way significant to the adoption or non-adoption of knitwear? Because fulling was _routine_. It was what you did to woolen cloth to clean it. I’m sure there are \*multiple \*reasons for the non-adoption of knitting for general clothing, actually. Guild politics, fashions, etc. I just think that the pre-existence of fulled cloth before the introduction of knitting means there wasn’t a _niche_ for knitted garments, and that knitted garments couldn’t replace that because they weren’t up to the harsh medieval fulling methods. > [@](#): > > Most woolen knitting, historically, is not fulled, but is water repellant and insulating of its own accord. Not _as much as_ fulled wovens, though. Knit jerseys are a comparatively modern development. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-archaeologists-anthropologists-knitting-who-came-up-with-it-and-when/591871.md?page=1)