# Calling all fundies **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2002, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700 "2002-08-27T00:11:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/21 "2002-08-27T16:21:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gex gex \* > > I thought that one had to be saved _from_ something - and I read your post as implying that by being saved by Christ, you were saved _from_ Judaism ("being brought up in a Jewish household - although reflecting on this, it’s possible that this isn’t the same as Judaism). I don’t see it that way at all. I respect everything I’ve ever learned about Judaism and I wouldn’t want to be saved _from_ it at all. I consider myself Jewish still because of my heritage. I feel that finding Christ \*for me \* has fulfilled _my_ search for the Messiah. > [@](#): > > would it be offensive to those who belong to a particular faith that one would need to be saved from them? Sure, that would be offensive but I’m not saying that. > [@](#): > > Should I stop hijacking this thread? The ball is in your court :). ---
**Author:** ![More\_Cowbell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@More\_Cowbell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/More_Cowbell)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/22 "2002-08-27T16:21:38Z")
I just thought it was interesting what **dreamer** had said. I actually stopped becoming a fundie and a Christian when I researched Judaism, not vice versa. Vineyard? Isn’t that the Toronto group that splintered off into the Brownseville movement? Those teachings (tongues, slain in the spirit, spiritual warfare) is actually what I was researching for the church group I was leading when I started moving away from Christianity. IMHO, that movement (charismatics in general) are very much a cult in Christianity and extremely misleading. In fact, I think if any group can be considered the anti-christ, it is that one. ---
**Author:** ![WV\_Woman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e95f7d/32.png) [@WV\_Woman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WV_Woman)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/23 "2002-08-27T16:30:28Z")
**1. How did you get saved?** It was at a revival at my home church. I was 7. God had been dealing with me before then, though. **2. What denomination church do you attend?** Grew up southern Baptist. Now I go to a non-denominational church, I guess you could call us pentecostal though. \*\*3. WHo are your favorite authors? \*\* John Grisham, Dave Barry, Erma Bombeck, plus some others that aren’t coming to mind right now. **4. Are you a Republican?** Registered Republican, yes, although my views are more Libertarian than anything. I’m not one of these “vote the party” people, I vote pro-life … and if that means voting for a _shudder_ Democrat, so be it. **5. Do you consdier other sects not-christian?** Some, yes. ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/24 "2002-08-27T17:13:11Z")
Like **Res** , I’m Catholic. I was born into a Catholic family, educated in Catholic schools, and have always attended Sunday Mass. Within the last few years I’ve explored my faith more deeply, I pray evey day, I attend daily Mass when I can ( a local parish has daily Mass in the evenings 3 nights a week). We don’t have the concepted of “Saved”, though. **Favourite authors** - Religious or secular? For religious works ione of my favorite books is “Living the Truth in Love: An Introduction to Moral Theology”. I also read lives of the saints, St. Francis DeSales, etc. For light reading I like Tom Clancy, Laurell K. Hamilton, Lois McMaster Bujold. **Voting preference** - I would say Republican, although I unfailingly vote Pro-life. I leave the souls of others in God’s capable hands. He’ll do the judging, thank you. StG ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/25 "2002-08-27T18:04:57Z")
FWIW, **ResIpsaLoquitor** , yours is the kind of story that far more impresses me. Personall, that is. One of my favorite authors is Flannery O’Connor, and she was about exactly the same kind of Catholic. Except of course she lived in the deep Pentecostal South, which also made her a freak. Which I also admire. It’s my belief that each of us must somehow build for him/herself a system of metaphor–a map of the universe–so that they can picture for themselves their place in it. I think that religion is a good starter metaphor for people who are undergoing that process, and insofar as they take it and make it their own map out of it, I think it’s a good thing and I admire it. But when people take a religion as a done deal–when they try to live their according to someone else’s map of the universe–I think it leads to small mindedness and ill feeling toward others. And of course, when someone develops a map that works for them, and then tries to make other people adopt his/her map, no modifications allowed, well then you get fringe fundamentalism and cults. So even though my map of the universe does not include a literal god, my admiration for the kind of religiosity by which Flannery O’Connor lived her life (what she called a “habit of being”; read her letters!) is such that she inspired me to read a few lives of the saints (O’Connor was a great reader of such books). I’m fascinated and full of admirations for many of those people who come to be known by others as saints (or bodhisatvas, or what have you). I’m also really fascinated by religious hysterics and visionaries: snake handlers, tongue talkers, people who spend their entire life building a grotto to the virgin Mary out of bottle caps, etc. Anyway, _ResIpsaLoquitor_\*, if you haven’t read Flannery O’Connors’s letters–the collection is titled _The Habit of Being_–I hope you will. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/26 "2002-08-27T18:07:03Z")
FWIW, **ResIpsaLoquitor** , yours is the kind of story that far more impresses me. Personally, that is. One of my favorite authors is Flannery O’Connor, and she was about exactly the same kind of Catholic. Except of course she lived in the deep Pentecostal South, which also made her a freak. Which I also admire. It’s my belief that each of us must somehow build for him/herself a system of metaphor–a map of the universe–so that they can picture for themselves their place in it. I think that religion is a good starter metaphor for people who are undergoing that process, and insofar as they take it and make it their own map out of it, I think it’s a good thing and I admire it. But when people take a religion as a done deal–when they try to live their according to someone else’s map of the universe–I think it leads to small mindedness and ill feeling toward others. And of course, when someone develops a map that works for them, and then tries to make other people adopt his/her map, no modifications allowed, well then you get fringe fundamentalism and cults. So even though my map of the universe does not include a literal god, my admiration for the kind of religiosity by which Flannery O’Connor lived her life (what she called a “habit of being”; read her letters!) is such that she inspired me to read a few lives of the saints (O’Connor was a great reader of such books). I’m fascinated and full of admirations for many of those people who come to be known by others as saints (or bodhisatvas, or what have you). I’m also really fascinated by religious hysterics and visionaries: snake handlers, tongue talkers, people who spend their entire life building a grotto to the virgin Mary out of bottle caps, etc. Anyway, _ResIpsaLoquitor_\*, if you haven’t read Flannery O’Connors’s letters–the collection is titled _The Habit of Being_–I hope you will. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/27 "2002-08-27T18:38:23Z")
Hmm… I think that **Gobear** and I have now established that due to Falwell & Company’s unrelenting hijack of the term “Fundamentalist” to include Biblical inerrancy (which historically it didn’t used to, and it didn’t while I was growing up with the term), I’m going to have to stop classifying myself as a “Fundie”, as I am not, strictly speaking, an inerrantist. Perhaps I should start a new sect–the Fundie Errantists? Oh, well… Saved–twice, once when I was nine and once when I was 16. Baptized three times–sprinkled as a infant, sprinkled in the 7th grade, and dunked in high school. I attend a Christian church. Favorite authors–practically anything at the library that isn’t nailed down, except for self-help books and philosophy. Political affiliations–politics, feh. Yes, I firmly believe that the Hasidic sects are not Christian. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/28 "2002-08-27T20:05:35Z")
I did not expect this many responses, only 4! I don’t know what else to call us: Bible belieiving christians, all I’ve been called is fundie, on here at least. I had meant christian authors, but I love Dave Barry too. So make it for all christians then, lets have some answers from the LDS and Polycarp too ( who is not a fundie, but fun anyway). Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/29 "2002-08-27T20:18:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > **… include Biblical inerrancy (which historically it didn’t used to, and it didn’t while I was growing up with the term),** It did while I was growing up in the Pentecostal Church of God and Assemblies of God churches in the 70s and 80s. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/30 "2002-08-27T20:45:27Z")
> [@](#): > > So make it for all christians then Okey-dokey. **1. How did you get saved?** My church doesn’t do the whole “saved” thing. I was baptized as an infant and took classes before being confirmed at the age of 16. I took confirmation seriously, and consider that the point at which I affirmed my faith and assumed my status as an adult Christian. **2. What denomination church do you attend?** Born, raised, and confirmed Congregationalist, now a Methodist. Potato-_potahto_, at least out here in the liberal northwest. **3. WHo are your favorite authors?** Christian? C.S. Lewis, Kathleen Norris, many many others **4. Are you a Republican?** Yep. But not a very conservative one. **5. Do you consdier other sects not-christian?** I’m not sure what you mean by other “sects.” Obviously a bunch of other religions are not Christian. So far as those _claiming_ to be . . . well, I have learned not to tell others if they can or cannot consider themselves or call themselves Christian. I don’t do it, because it infuriates me when others (mostly fundies) do it to me. (“You’re not Christian because you don’t believe the Bible is the literal word of God,” etc.) Certainly other people and other groups do things and believe things that are not consistent with Christianity as I understand it – things that make me go “Huh. I wonder where they get that?” But that’s more true of Fred Phelps than it is of, say, the LDS. DUCK DUCK GOOSE, what do you mean by “Hasidic sects”? The Hasidim are Jews, right? Why would anyone think they are Christian? Not picking a fight, I just don’t know what you mean there. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/31 "2002-08-27T20:54:02Z")
**Jodi** : _DUCK DUCK GOOSE, what do you mean by “Hasidic sects”? The Hasidim are Jews, right? Why would anyone think they are Christian?_ (pssst Jodi: whoosh. 🙂 it were a funny.) ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/32 "2002-08-27T20:56:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > \*\*DUCK DUCK GOOSE, what do you mean by “Hasidic sects”? The Hasidim are Jews, right? Why would anyone think they are Christian? Not picking a fight, I just don’t know what you mean there. \*\* I think **DDG** was calling attention to the weird (or, at best, ambiguous) phrasing **vanilla** used in her OP. Hasidim is a sect of Judaism, and it’s not-Christian, so that literally answers Question 5 of the OP… but that’s probably not what **vanilla** was gunning for. I suspect the OP wanted to know if various other fundies consider Mormonism, JW’s, Catholics, Christian Scientists, etc. “Christian” or not. You know–denominations which claim to be Christian but aren’t, according to a large number of Fundies. That’s my interpretation of the two posts, at least. Quix ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/33 "2002-08-27T21:25:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homebrew \* > \*\*It did while I was growing up in the Pentecostal Church of God and Assemblies of God churches in the 70s and 80s. \*\* Right. It wasn’t until the 1970s, when Harold Lindsell and his _The Battle for the Bible_, which was published in 1976, popularized the concept of Biblical inerrancy, that “inerrancy” got to be included as one of the Five Fundamentals, especially among the Pentecostals and Assembly of God. Nowadays, of course, “inerrancy” and “Fundie” are interchangeable, but it wasn’t always like that. While **I** was growing up in the 1950s and 1960s, among a mixed group of Lutherans, American Baptists, Southern Baptists, and Methodists, “fundamentalist” still had the old-fashioned meaning–“someone who believes the Five Fundamentals”, as laid down in the Doctrinal Deliverance of 1910. [http://www.pcanet.org/history/documents/deliverance.html](http://www.pcanet.org/history/documents/deliverance.html) The original Fundamental that referred to the Bible says: > [@](#): > > 1. It is an essential doctrine of the Word of God and our Standards, that the Holy Spirit did so inspire, guide and move the writers of the Holy Scriptures as to keep them from error. Our Confession says [Chapter I, Section 10]: "The Supreme Judge, by whom all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scriptures. It doesn’t say “inerrant”. It says “free from error” and refers to “doctrinal” error, not “scientific” error. It was formulated as a reaction against the growing secular humanism of the turn of the century, which said that the Bible was just a collection of inspiring fairy tales, written by men. The Presbyterians wanted to make it clear that everything in the Bible is there because God wants it there, because the Holy Spirit inspired the men who wrote it. They never intended “free from error” to mean things like “God created the world in, literally, 144 hours”. This idea that the Bible is literally, totally true was around for a while during the decades after the publication of the Five Fundamentals, as a sort of “fringe” idea in conservative Christian circles, but it was _The Battle for the Bible_, which was a best-seller, that made the concept go mainstream, especially after Jerry Falwell and an assortment of other TV evangelists started popularizing it, which, again, happened during the 1970s and 1980s. [http://www.religion-online.org/cgi-bin/relsearchd.dll/showarticle?item\_id=1823](http://www.religion-online.org/cgi-bin/relsearchd.dll/showarticle?item_id=1823) > [@](#): > > The author of The Battle for the Bible (Zondervan, $6.95) is Harold Lindsell, who served on the faculties of Chicago’s Northern Baptist Seminary and Pasadena’s Fuller Seminary before succeeding Carl F. H. Henry, founding editor of Christianity Today. The book carries an appreciative foreword/endorsement by Harold J. Ockenga, president of Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary near Boston and a major force behind the post – World War II “neo-evangelical renaissance” that spawned Christianity Today, the National Association of Evangelicals (NAE) and Fuller Theological Seminary. All of this blue-chip evangelical clout is brought to bear in support of the doctrine of biblical “inerrancy” against a growing party of theological compatriots inclined to speak more of the “authority” of Scripture with regard to “faith and practice.” > > Lindsell flatly argues that the Bible “does not contain error of any kind” – that it may be absolutely trusted in all its references to history, cosmology, science and so forth. For him this doctrine is not only the fundamental discriminator whereby one discerns the “true Christian” but also the universal teaching of the Christian church – at least prior to the rise of biblical criticism. So, yes, growing up in the 1970s and 1980s in a Pentecostal church, you’d have inevitably associated “Fundamentalist” with “inerrancy”. But it wasn’t always like that. I think it’s very unfair and quite annoying of Lindsell and Falwell et al to co-opt the term like this, but I don’t see that there’s anything I can do about it. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/34 "2002-08-27T21:33:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by quixotic78 \* > **I suspect the OP wanted to know if various other fundies consider Mormonism, JW’s, Catholics, Christian Scientists, etc. “Christian” or not. You know–denominations which claim to be Christian but aren’t, according to a large number of Fundies** Yeah, that’s what I thought, too, which was why I declined to answer it. Fingerpointing threads belong in the Pit, IMO. 😉 That way all the folks who get blacklisted as “Not _Really_ Christian” can feel free to let fly. 😃 But FTR: The requirements for being a “Christian” are as follows: > [@](#): > > \*\*Romans 10: 9 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. \*\* If there are any other requirements, they ain’t in the Bible, “inerrant” or not. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/35 "2002-08-27T21:54:19Z")
DUCK DUCK – Very interesting post about the history of the term “fundamentalist.” I did not know that. Thanks for the post. ---
**Author:** ![Katisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bcef8e/32.png) [@Katisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katisha)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/36 "2002-08-27T22:25:24Z")
What the heck, let’s do the poll… **1. How did you get saved?** We don’t do the whole “saved” thing. I was confirmed at 14, I think, which is about the usual age. I was pretty casual about religion for a long time, though, and only started going to church regularly last summer. It’s been kind of a long, painful struggle since then – still is, in fact – because I don’t know how to deal with my disagreements on some of what the Church teaches. **2. What denomination church do you attend?** Catholic. As I said before. 😉 I consider myself a liberal, though. **3. WHo are your favorite authors?** J.R.R. Tolkien – he counts, doesn’t he? I’m not really into contemporary Christian media. OTOH, I’m a student of Renaissance literature and there’s a lot of great religious poetry from that era – Donne, Herbert, and of course Milton, though (not being Protestant and all) I’m not always in agreement with the specifics of their theology. (Of course, a lot of Renaissance English literature is profoundly anti-Catholic.) **4. Are you a Republican?** No way. (Side note: the rest of my immediate family usually votes Republican, though not, as far as I can tell, for religious reasons.) **5. Do you consdier other sects not-christian?** It’s not up to me to say who’s Christian and who’s not – besides, as **Jodi** says, it’s infuriating to be on the receiving end, so I wouldn’t dare say it of someone else. (Though it’s tempting with regards to the likes of, say, Fred Phelps.) ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/37 "2002-08-27T23:24:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\* > Could you elaborate on what does (and does not) qualify under “stuff like that”? I mean, it must be a pretty broad group, if both mormons and muslims belong to it. \*\* Don’t know how well I can do but I’ll try. Most true Christians agree on the basic tenets of the faith: the virgin birth, deity of Christ, His sinless life, His death on the cross for our sins, His resurrection, His return. That those who accept Him and His sacrifice will spend eternity in heaven with Him and those who don’t accept His sacrifice will spend eternity in hell. Any religion that teaches any other way to heaven than Christ is false or a cult. Also some religions like JW’s have such differing beliefs that they made their own Bible version to support their beliefs. Mormons follow Joseph Smith who received some gold plates from an angel, I don’t see anwhere were he tested the spirits according to 1 John 4:1-3. Muslims worship Allah and consider Muhammad to be their prophet. They believe in Jesus but not that He’s the Saviour and God in the flesh as the sciprure teaches. Colissians 2:9 . Satan has had a field day today causing all these different cults and religions to confuse people as to which way is the true way. The true way is Christ who said "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me. John 14:6 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/38 "2002-08-27T23:39:18Z")
Thanks, H4E. You’ve proven that you’ve absolutely no knowledge of my church. I, for one, would appreciate your not making any further comments on it unless it’s to gain knowledge about it instead of to damn that which you don’t knowl ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2002, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/39 "2002-08-27T23:43:07Z")
SO answer the poll, Monty!🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2002, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/40 "2002-08-28T00:05:28Z")
Um, I believe this statement is wrong: > [@](#): > > Also some religions like JW’s have such differing beliefs that they made their own Bible version to support their beliefs. See this. Both the KJV and the New English Bibles are quoted from on their website. [http://www.watchtower.org/library/jt/index.htm](http://www.watchtower.org/library/jt/index.htm) > [@](#): > > From this it is apparent that Jehovah’s Witnesses believe in the Bible as the Word of God. They consider its 66 books to be inspired and historically accurate. What is commonly called the New Testament they refer to as the Christian Greek Scriptures, and the Old Testament they call the Hebrew Scriptures. They rely on both of these, the Greek and the Hebrew Scriptures, and take them literally except where the expressions or settings obviously indicate that they are figurative or symbolic. They understand that many of the prophecies of the Bible have been fulfilled, others are in the course of fulfillment, and still others await fulfillment. Although if you can come up with a cite for your statement, **His4ever** , I welcome enlightenment. This website, after all, is about Fighting Ignorance. 😃 And about this: > [@](#): > > Mormons follow Joseph Smith who received some gold plates from an angel Well, first of all, Monty, it’s a marvelous kindergarten-level explanation, innit? 😃 > [@](#): > > I don’t see anwhere were he tested the spirits according to 1 John 4:1-3. [I John 4:1-3](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=I+John+4&version=NIV) says, courtesy of the Bible Gateway: > [@](#): > > \*\*1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. \*\* Monty, correct me if I’m wrong, but I was under the impression that the LDS believe in Jesus, worship Jesus, and just generally acknowledge that “Jesus Christ is come in the flesh”. Is this not so? If this is true, then if Joseph Smith had “tested the spirit” that led him to the plates, he would have found that the spirit in question was from God, as it would have confirmed that Jesus was Lord, since the church he founded believes that Jesus is Lord. Yes? Therefore, **His4ever** , Mormons are Christians. Look at this. > **[Home | ComeUntoChrist](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/comeuntochrist)** > > Welcome to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. No matter your story, we welcome you to join us as we all try to be a little bit better, a little bit kinder, a little more helpful—because that’s what Jesus taught. > [@](#): > > Who is Jesus Christ? > > Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He was the Creator, He is our Savior, and He will be our Judge. > Under the direction of our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ created the earth (John 1:10; Hebrews 1:2). > > When Jesus lived on the earth (approximately 2,000 years ago), He led a perfect life. He taught by word and example how people should live in love of God and others. > > Through His suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and by giving His life on the cross—that is, by performing the Atonement—Jesus Christ saves us from our sins (1 Peter 2:21) as we follow Him. Because of the Atonement, you can be forgiven of your sins when you sincerely repent (Book of Mormon, Mosiah 26:30). > > Through His Resurrection, Jesus Christ saved us from death. Because He overcame death, we will all be given the gift of resurrection (Acts 24:15; 1 Corinthians 15:22). When life on this earth is over, Jesus Christ will be the final Judge (Acts 17:31; John 5:21–22; Acts 10:42). That’s about as tight a statement of Christian belief as you could ask for, **His4ever**. Gonzo golden plate mythology or no gonzo golden plate mythology, Mormons are still Christians. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700.md?page=3)