# Calling all fundies **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2002, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700 "2002-08-27T00:11:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/81 "2002-08-29T01:05:52Z")
Ah, so you really don’t know what you’re talking about, H4E. Thanks for clearing that up. Next thing you really ought to do is check out the dictionary definition of “bias.” ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/82 "2002-08-29T01:53:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by His4ever \* > \*\*I have a book written by a woman who was raised in the Mormon religion so she knows what they believe as that’s what she was taught. […] Anyway, she has a few of their beliefs listed on the back jacket of the book such as: > > […] > > The Holy Spirit is a man.\*\* Now wait a minute. I’ve heard at least one evangelical Christian, who was definitely **not** a Mormon, say that:[LIST=A][li]The Holy Spirit is the 3rd person of the Trinity, with the emphasis on “person”; and[/li]When using pronouns, the Holy Spirit is to be referred to as “He”.[/LIST]Is this not the case? ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/83 "2002-08-29T02:03:52Z")
My goodness, H4E. I have rarely read such a strange list of my so-called beliefs–and I’ve read some interesting lists. Have you never heard of the tactics of anti-Mormons, which include claiming to be formerly LDS, twisting actual doctrine to be unrecognizable, and outright lying? Perhaps you should hie you down to someplace where you can get some real information. [www.mormon.org](http://www.mormon.org) is someplace to start, but you seem to need more than a simple overview. I’ll be back later with a list, since I have to go to a youth activity now. ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/84 "2002-08-29T02:15:15Z")
H4E, that was hilarious. Ironic, witty, and a great satire on the stupid things people think about Mormons. waitasecond… you weren’t serious? were you? Kirk ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/85 "2002-08-29T03:12:16Z")
**dreamer** , it took me and my boyfriend awhile to find a church that we both liked. He was raised Baptist and I was raised Pentacostal. When we got together, he wasn’t comfortable in a Pentacostal church, and the church he took me to was to down beat. I just didn’t get anything out of it, ya know what I mean?! We stumbled across [BethIsrael](http://www.bethisraelcenter.com/bimc.htm) through a co-worker/friend of mine. It was everything we wanted. It is a bible teaching church that is very upbeat with a Jewish sound. I know that may sound silly, but I like it. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/86 "2002-08-29T03:13:39Z")
> [@](#): > > As to religions like Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, etc; I can’t accept these as Christian religions obviously. Well, you don’t have to, since they’re NOT Christian. 😉 _Sola Scripture_-meaning you go by the Scriptures alone. It doesn’t matter that there may be other schools of thought and philosophy. That’s a shame-because early Christianity got a lot from the works of Plato and Aristotle, as well as early Christian philosophers like St. Augustine of Hippo and Thomas Aquinas. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/87 "2002-08-29T03:17:51Z")
Actually **Monty** , when someone says " We don’t claim to **follow the bible**" I take it as " We don’t claim to **follow the bible**". Call me crazy. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/88 "2002-08-29T03:18:59Z")
> [@](#): > > she has photocopies of documents that prove they believe these things, how can they be denied? I don’t know, maybe forgeries? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/89 "2002-08-29T03:21:33Z")
**His4Ever** , this woman sounds like another Alberto Rivera-in short, a fraud. Please tell us the name of this book and the author. I’d like to research this book. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/90 "2002-08-29T03:30:42Z")
My goodness, H4E. I have rarely read such a strange list of my so-called beliefs–and I’ve read some interesting lists. Have you never heard of the tactics of anti-Mormons, which include claiming to be formerly LDS, twisting actual doctrine to be unrecognizable, and outright lying? Perhaps you should hie you down to someplace where you can get some real information. [www.mormon.org](http://www.mormon.org) is someplace to start, but you seem to need more than a simple overview. I’ll be back later with a list, since I have to go to a youth activity now (where we will, of course, be sacrificing goats…) ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/91 "2002-08-29T03:35:19Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by His4ever \* \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > [ > I just can’t accept these teachings, to me they’re blasphemous. Perhaps there are Mormons today who will deny these teachings but if this woman was raised in these teachings and she has photocopies of documents that prove they believe these things, how can they be denied? There are probably Mormons who perhaps don’t even realize all the teachings of mormonism > > Remember you said no retribution. 😃 I don’t want to be attacked by all the Mormons on this board. They have a right to believe as they want, for myself I just don’t share some of these beliefs. \*\* I’m not a mormon, so I feel free to attack. You know, there’s a weird concept you perhaps never heard about and which is very convenient when you want to sell books… It’s called “lie”. The general idea is to state something which is untrue, as weird as it could seem. For instance I can say “I’m a close friend of the pope”. It’s a lie. Actually, I’m not a good friend of the pope. I can add then : “since I’m a good friend of the pope, I know about the secret teachings of the catholic church”. It’s also a lie. The truth is that I know nothing about the secret teachings of the catholic church. A lie can be more elaborate. For instance I could actually be a good friend of the pope, and know about the secret teachings of the church, but instead of disclosing these secrets, I could make up a complete set of teachings which have nothing to do with the real ones. Finally liars (people who lie) can use extremely subtle tricks. For instance, typying some lies (see above) on a sheet of paper, and saying the sheet of paper comes directly from the pope’s office. This is called a “fake”. Usually, the more “lies” you tell and the more “fakes” you make, the more books you sell. Lies have also a strange property very useful for the “liar”. For an unknown reason still investigated by many scientists, they spread quicker and more widely than truth. This property generally allows the “liar” (also called “crook”) to sell even more books. ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/92 "2002-08-29T03:53:06Z")
**fluiddruid** , I don’t know if I can be as _enlightened_ as you, 😃 oh no, did I laugh out loud?! but here goes: If I made changes to the bible and added stuff in to suite my beliefs, then yes, I would expect people to say I am not a Christian. **2 Timonthy 4:3** For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. **4** They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. **Mark 7:6** He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. **7** They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ **8** You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” **Revelation 22:18** I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. **19** And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/93 "2002-08-29T04:01:27Z")
So tell me, **JerseyDiamond** how is it that you’re so sure that it’s not your ears that are itching? ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/94 "2002-08-29T04:05:06Z")
From a catholic position, Jersey, every single one of your quotes applies to the Protestant reformers, and their successors. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/95 "2002-08-29T04:08:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > **I keep on butting in on questions to everybody else.** Honey, you just keep on doin’ what you been doin’. 😃 Monty, is this fairly accurate? [http://www.watchman.org/cat95.htm#LDS](http://www.watchman.org/cat95.htm#LDS) > [@](#): > > Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, The, Joseph Smith, Salt Lake City, UT: (Latter-day Saints, LDS, Mormonism) Main body of Mormonism; recognizes Brigham Young as Smith’s successor. Smith claimed that the Father and Son appeared to him and called him to restore the true Church. LDS Church teaches that God the Father was once a man and was exalted to Godhood. God (and his heavenly Wife) begat billions of spirit children, the firstborn of whom was Jesus. Lucifer was the leader of God’s rebellious spirit children. Those spirits who did not rebel become human beings in order to begin process potentially leading to exaltation to Godhood. Jesus, however, became a God while only a spirit. He organized our world and is Jehovah, the God of Israel. He is a separate and subordinate God to Elohim, the Father. > > A distinction is made between the Holy Ghost, who is a personage of Spirit, and the Holy Spirit. The latter is a divine energy, force, or spiritual essence that fills the universe and is used by all three members of the Godhead in the exercise and accomplishment of their will. The Church rejects the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity. It also redefines salvation by grace to refer simply to resurrection. Almost all humans will be resurrected into one of three kingdoms of glory, the least of which is far superior to anything known in this life. Entry into the higher kingdoms, and one’s rank there, depends not only upon the atonement of Christ, but also upon one’s good works. Achievement of the highest potential within the highest kingdom—Godhood—requires complete “obedience to all the laws and ordinances of the gospel.” The Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine and Covenants are all considered scripture. **His4ever’s** book jacket set off my Urban Legend “Oh come on” alarms in a big way. 😃 Googling for things like “jesus polygamist lucifer blood brother”, I seem to be finding out that these are things that are repeated by conservative Christians who are oppposed to Mormonism. Like these folks, who seem to be a sort of self-appointed Inquisition, searching out heresy wherever it may be. > **[Department of Christian Defense, apologetic ministry](https://christiandefense.org)** > > Christian apologetics ministry, Educate and equip Christians to reasonably, confidently, and accurately proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ. Edward Dalcour. > [@](#): > > Mission Statement > > The purpose of the Department of Christian Defense is to proclaim and defend the Gospel of Jesus Christ against those who controvert the essentials of historic biblical faith. Also to provide information to educate and equip Christians to reasonably and confidently share their faith with members of non-Christian cults, and along with anyone that denies the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith: Jesus as the eternal God, the doctrine of the Trinity, the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ, justification through faith alone. According to them, today’s heresies include Mormonism, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and the International Church of Christ. Their “Mormonism” page sounds very similar to the book that **His4ever** is talking about. > **[Factual errors in the Book of Mormon](https://christiandefense.org/mormonism/book-of-mormon-contradictions/)** > > Book of Mormon contains significant contradictions both historical and theological (and logical). Of the abounding material objectively demonstrating this (from its inception), there is documented evidence of a vast amount of erroneous teaching in... I am especially interested in their “take” on the Paternity of Jesus. > [@](#): > > Official LDS doctrine teaches that God the Father and the Virgin Mary had sexual intercourse, to procreate Jesus’ fleshly body. What is utterly pagan is that the Mormons say that we are all literal sons and daughters of the Father God and Mother God in heaven. Hence Mary, in LDS theology, was a literal daughter of the Father. The result: The LDS God the Father had sexual relations (and married) His own daughter to father the child Jesus. 'Zat so? But isn’t that just another way, albeit a rather sleazy, soap-opera-ish way, of putting “the Holy Spirit got her pregnant”? And yeah, aren’t we all “children of God”? So yeah, Mary was God’s own “daughter”, if ya wanna look at it that way. Am I missing something, theologically nit-pickily speaking? So. Anyway. [shrug] **His4ever** , we’d sure like to know the name of the author of that book you’ve got. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/96 "2002-08-29T05:11:05Z")
I would say, Duck, that that blurb is pretty good, though not completely accurate. I’ve never heard a distinction between the Holy Ghost vs. Holy Spirit, for example, and would not say some of those other things in exactly that way. But it’s certainly better than some of the nonsense we’ve had here! Here’s an idea for some of you out there: it’s usually better to ask an actual member of the religion in question about what they believe, rather than someone who is not a member, and so does not know. People routinely get even the most basic LDS beliefs wrong, which is kind of stunning–they’re not that complex. Your last quote, of course, is a twisted version of what LDS believe, which is that Jesus was the only begotten, actual real live son of God. No sex necessary, though–it does say she was a virgin. We are all spirit children of our heavenly parents (I’m not sure what that ‘literal’ bit means?). Books H4E might be well advised to peruse include: [The Mormon experience](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0252062361/qid=1030596105/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-9895943-7745716?v=glance&s=books), a history for non-LDS written by an LDS historian [How wide the divide?](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0830819916/ref=pd_sim_books/102-9895943-7745716), a conversation between an evangelical and a Mormon theologian [What do Mormons believe?](http://deseretbook.com/store/product?product_id=100010879), a short overview of LDS beliefs[The new Mormon challenge](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0310231949/qid=/sr=/ref=cm_lm_asin/102-9895943-7745716?v=glance), which at least tries to bring anti-Mormons out of the habit of reprinting lies that were debunked 100 years ago ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/97 "2002-08-29T06:05:49Z")
DDG: You’re also misrepresenting the actual teachings, but in your case it’s from oversimplifying it for the intended audience and it’s not too misrepresented. (I’m sure you don’t include me as part of an audience that needs to have it “kindergardened down” to understand it). “Blood brother,” the term which H4E the Niner used, is an obviously loaded term intended to incite those who know no better against the LDS. As the cite you provided shows, the actual teaching is that we’re all God’s spirit children. Now it’s time for me to trot out my favourite analogy—\>Consider the case of two brothers, one a priest and the other a hit man. The priest is still a good man. It’s only in the Niners’ (not the sports team) minds that the fact of a sibling relationship corrupts the good. In other words: No, the cite you provided does not say the same things that the hypocrite said our teachings are. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/98 "2002-08-29T13:15:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > \*\* > Right. It wasn’t until the 1970s, when Harold Lindsell and his _The Battle for the Bible_, which was published in 1976, popularized the concept of Biblical inerrancy, that “inerrancy” got to be included as one of the Five Fundamentals, especially among the Pentecostals and Assembly of God. Nowadays, of course, “inerrancy” and “Fundie” are interchangeable, but it wasn’t always like that… > > I think it’s very unfair and quite annoying of Lindsell and Falwell et al to co-opt the term like this, but I don’t see that there’s anything I can do about it. \*\* The 1970s? I imagine you would have trouble convincing William Jennings Bryan and Clarence Darrow of that. 🙂 Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/99 "2002-08-29T14:44:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\ ***His4Ever** , this woman sounds like another Alberto Rivera-in short, a fraud. > > Please tell us the name of this book and the author. I’d like to research this book. \*\* The name of the book is Mormonism, Mama, & Me by Thelma “Granny” Greer. Why in the world would an old lady lie about a religion she was raised in. Is it that because it doesn’t agree with your beliefs, it must be wrong right? Just because the book disagrees with you, the author is a fraud, right? This is getting ridiculous imo.:smack: ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700/100 "2002-08-29T14:53:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > \*\ ***fluiddruid** , I don’t know if I can be as _enlightened_ as you, 😃 oh no, did I laugh out loud?! but here goes: > If I made changes to the bible and added stuff in to suite my beliefs, then yes, I would expect people to say I am not a Christian. > > **2 Timonthy 4:3** For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. > **4** They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. > **Mark 7:6** He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. > **7** They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’ > **8** You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” > **Revelation 22:18** I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. > **19** And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. \*\* You might as well forget it, Jersey, anyone who comes in here giving an opinion that differs from theirs is automatically wrong and they’re right about everything. I agree wholeheartedly with you especially the Scripture about heaping to yourselves teachers that tell you what your itching ears want to hear. They are the ones with the itching ears. They just don’t know it cos the devil is determined that they don’t know it and they won’t listen to anyone who says different. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-all-fundies/125700.md?page=6)