# Calling out a CLAIM is not attacking the poster **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [November 15, 2023, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-out-a-claim-is-not-attacking-the-poster/993177 "2023-11-15T05:31:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-out-a-claim-is-not-attacking-the-poster/993177/21 "2023-11-15T14:54:05Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Part of me is like, this is an existential war on both sides, are we really gonna insist on raising our pinkies when we drink tea? But I also see that the forums have rules, and as long as we’re gonna have those rules, they oughtta be enforced. That’s why I suggested taking up the discussion in the pit. Because I don’t think a fair and robust discussion or some of the important elements of this war is going to work in MPSIMS. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-out-a-claim-is-not-attacking-the-poster/993177/22 "2023-11-15T15:00:51Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I just want to make it clear that in that thread, the OP accused me on _three different occasions_ of propagating Hamas propaganda. Those were deeply hurtful accusations. _Then_ they accused me of making a blood libel claim. > > I don’t want Babale banned from the thread. I respect Babale, and I think their voice is _essential_ for that thread. I just want them to stop attacking me. And for the record, I will no longer be responding to Babale in that thread or any other. I have not been attacking you, I have been attacking your arguments. I’ve never called you a Hamas supporter, and I don’t believe I’ve said you’re antisemitic; if I have that was sloppy of me and I apologize. But your _arguments_ have echoed Hamas propaganda. Hamas is very eager to make the Palestinian people believe that Israel wants to steal all of Gaza and kill them all, for example, because that makes Palestinians fight for Hamas. So I call out those aspects of your argument and challenge them, precisely because I _don’t_ think you’re an irredeemable Israel hater. If I did, I’d stop responding to you outside the Pit, like I have for other posters. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-out-a-claim-is-not-attacking-the-poster/993177/23 "2023-11-15T15:02:40Z")
Is accusing Israel of mass murder done in the name of their country blood libel? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-out-a-claim-is-not-attacking-the-poster/993177/24 "2023-11-15T15:07:40Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Is accusing Israel of mass murder done in the name of their country blood libel?. If the accusation is that they’re mass murdering non-Jews as part of an evil Jewish plot, then abso-fucking-lutely. Which is _exactly_ what the “Second Nakba” narrative that Banquet\_Bear references alleges. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-out-a-claim-is-not-attacking-the-poster/993177/25 "2023-11-15T15:10:08Z")
…I don’t know why Babale is making stuff up about me here. But please,I beg you to stop. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-out-a-claim-is-not-attacking-the-poster/993177/26 "2023-11-15T15:12:26Z")
Your posts are _right there_ for everyone to read, and before I described them as _anything,_ I asked you to clarify and confirm your meaning. What am I _making up_? If I am misunderstanding your point, then _please tell me_. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-out-a-claim-is-not-attacking-the-poster/993177/27 "2023-11-15T15:22:11Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > What am I _making up_? …I haven’t said anything about “mass murdering non-Jews as part of an evil Jewish plot,” And my reference to Nakba was in regards to this: > **[Nakba](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba)** > > The Nakba (Arabic: النكبة, romanized: an-Nakbah, lit. 'the catastrophe') was the violent displacement and dispossession of Palestinians, and the destruction of their society, culture, identity, political rights, and national aspirations. The term is used to describe both the events of 1948, as well as the ongoing occupation of the Palestinian territories (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) and persecution and displacement of Palestinians throughout the region. > The foundational events of the Na... This isn’t a “narrative.” Its _history_. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-out-a-claim-is-not-attacking-the-poster/993177/28 "2023-11-15T15:27:10Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > If the accusation is that they’re mass murdering non-Jews as part of an evil Jewish plot, then abso-fucking-lutely. I would totally agree. Now, what if the accusation is that they’re mass murdering non-Israelis as part of an evil Israeli plot? To put it in it’s most blunt terms is there a distinction between Israelis and Jews? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-out-a-claim-is-not-attacking-the-poster/993177/29 "2023-11-15T15:30:11Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I haven’t said anything about “mass murdering non-Jews as part of an evil Jewish plot,” You said that the IDF had Al Shifa surrounded, knew that there was absolutely no Hamas presence there, but are bombing the place (and, according to you, sniping doctors and nurses) anyways. No, you didn’t use the words “mass murdering non-Jews as part of an evil Jewish plot.” You didn’t _need to_, because you just described the IDF doing _exactly that_ but just didn’t say the magic words that cross the line. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-out-a-claim-is-not-attacking-the-poster/993177/30 "2023-11-15T15:34:06Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > No, you didn’t use the words “mass murdering non-Jews as part of an evil Jewish plot.” …I didn’t use those words because why thefuck would I even think those words. Why the hell would I think that? Why on earth are you attributing this evil position to me? After all my years on the dope, why would you even think I could think this? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-out-a-claim-is-not-attacking-the-poster/993177/31 "2023-11-15T15:40:31Z")
Not particular to the OP’s post but I have noticed lately more and more posters attacking the poster with just a gossamer-thin cover of “I’m attacking the post.” They are trying to game the system and based on mod notes I’d say there’s a 50/50 chance they get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-out-a-claim-is-not-attacking-the-poster/993177/32 "2023-11-15T15:41:23Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > That’s why I suggested taking up the discussion in the pit. Because I don’t think a fair and robust discussion or some of the important elements of this war is going to work in MPSIMS. I think the thread has been very valuable, and that Babale has been one of the most valuable voices in it. The personal attacks, to the extent that they do exist in that thread, seem to me to have been coming from multiple directions – I nearly reported post #427 for “Sorry if it got your panties in a twist when I pointed out the obvious”, but the thread has continued to behave oddly for me and often becomes nonfunctional if I try to return to a post after reading further down the thread (and sometimes even if I don’t), and I thought it might already have been noted as when I read that the thread had moved on quite a bit. But apparently nobody else thought that was attacking the poster, though it seems quite clear to me. If the thread moves to the Pit I strongly suspect it’s going to rapidly degenerate into straight name-calling and cease to be valuable. Please don’t move it. Please cancel the move of any discussion of whether the IDF is deliberately targeting civilians to the Pit; that’s an essential central part of the issue. And please don’t throw Babale out of it. You are silencing one of the people who knows most about the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-out-a-claim-is-not-attacking-the-poster/993177/33 "2023-11-15T15:43:22Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Why on earth are you attributing this evil position to me? After all my years on the dope, why would you even think I could think this? Because I can’t think of a _single other reason_ for Israel or the IDF to do the utterly evil and depraved thing that you accuse them of doing? Because the people calling this a “Second Nakba” either _believe that this is an evil Jewish plot_, or they are _evil, depraved Jews who actually would want this_, like the minister who went on TV and ranted about how a second Nakba is coming? ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-out-a-claim-is-not-attacking-the-poster/993177/34 "2023-11-15T15:44:45Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I didn’t use those words because why thefuck would I even think those words. Why the hell would I think that? > > Why on earth are you attributing this evil position to me? After all my years on the dope, why would you even think I could think this? Then why are you saying that the IDF are attacking the hospital despite knowing that Hamas isn’t in or under the hospital? Because it seems pretty clear to me that you have been saying that. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-out-a-claim-is-not-attacking-the-poster/993177/35 "2023-11-15T15:47:51Z")
…I’m not getting into that debate about my positions in the other thread. I just ask you to stop with the accusations in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-out-a-claim-is-not-attacking-the-poster/993177/36 "2023-11-15T15:47:54Z")
Do you really think these posts belong in an ATMB thread? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-out-a-claim-is-not-attacking-the-poster/993177/37 "2023-11-15T15:56:16Z")
You are right, I should have reported the post where I was accused of lying instead of responding here. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-out-a-claim-is-not-attacking-the-poster/993177/38 "2023-11-15T16:14:04Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I don’t know why Babale is making stuff up about me here. But please,I beg you to stop. I think there’s some confusion here, and I’ll unpick why I at least am a little confused: 1. I believe you’ve suggested people try to see things through the Palestinian lens. 2. That lens involves the “Second Nakba.” 3. I _think_ you’ve distinguished between that lens and how you actually see it, getting frustrated when people ascribe that position to you. At that point, I’m not sure what your position is, or what you’re asking people to do exactly. I think others are confused at this point as well. On the other hand > [@Babale](#): > > Because the people calling this a “Second Nakba” either _believe that this is an evil Jewish plot_, or they are _evil, depraved Jews who actually would want this_, like the minister who went on TV and ranted about how a second Nakba is coming? If high-ranking ministers in Israel’s government are calling this a second Nakba, I’m not sure it’s fair to call it “blood libel.” An important part of “blood libel” is that it’s “libel,” that is, an accusation with zero evidence. A high-ranking minister using that language is at least evidence that it’s happening, and while that high-ranking minister might be a goddamned idiot, maybe don’t use “blood libel” to describe others who take him at his word? And > [@Babale](#): > > You are right, I should have reported the post where I was accused of lying instead of responding here. There’s a lot of the thread consisting of “that’s not what I said!” I’m not sure that comprises an accusation of lying, but also in general if someone’s misrepresenting you (impersonal you), it’s worth considering whether it’s because you weren’t clear in the first place, and whether a clarification of your belief is in order. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-out-a-claim-is-not-attacking-the-poster/993177/39 "2023-11-15T16:32:05Z")
I would also like to ask for mods to give some attention to some pretty ugly language being used about Palestinians, such as talking about their “war-like culture” and how violence is “the only language they understand.” I’m certain the board wouldn’t tolerate such language being used about Jews, and it also shouldn’t tolerate it being used about Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2023, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-out-a-claim-is-not-attacking-the-poster/993177/40 "2023-11-15T16:46:22Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If high-ranking ministers in Israel’s government are calling this a second Nakba, It was one minister, who was swiftly rebuked by many including Netanyahu. But you make an excellent point about how dangerous it is for anyone with even a _shred_ of authority to play into this narrative, which is why it was _so_ irresponsible for Netanyahu to form a coalition with far right fanatics. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-out-a-claim-is-not-attacking-the-poster/993177.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-out-a-claim-is-not-attacking-the-poster/993177.md?page=3)