# Calling someone a liar in Congress **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 6, 2015, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-someone-a-liar-in-congress/730174 "2015-09-06T13:25:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-someone-a-liar-in-congress/730174/21 "2015-09-07T14:25:02Z")
Here in Oz, things are derived from the UK parliament. One nice thing is a notion of “unparliamentary speech” and an ever growing list of unparliamentary expressions. Sadly the glory days of this seems to behind us, but there were some truly brilliant exchanges in the past. It seems that although you may not call another member of parliament a liar, you can call them a: scum-bag, brain damaged, a “stupid foul-mouthed grub”, “like a lizard on a rock - alive, but looking dead”, an “intellectual rust bucket”, cheat, fraud, drone, “irrelevant, useless and immoral”, a “complete political harlot”, clown, dullard, bag-man, “mindless, useless, idealistic, unprincipled”. Those were the days. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-someone-a-liar-in-congress/730174/22 "2015-09-07T14:51:56Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > You can credit George Washington with that. He sat in on one session of the Senate (I’m not sure if it was the first, but one of the earliest) and realized what a total waste of time it was. He never went back. Today, presidents only go to Congress for the State of the Union Address or occasionally, a speech to a joint session. In the early days, they didn’t even give a SotUA. The Constitution doesn’t require it to be a speech, just a communication. I believe you’re referring to the incident when he testified before them on [Indian treaties](http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/minute/The_Senate_Irritates_President_George_Washington.htm). Not exactly sitting in with them, though the result was the same. > [@](#): > > Three weeks later, on August 22, 1789, the president visited the Senate to receive its advice and consent for an Indian treaty. He occupied the presiding officer’s chair while Senate President John Adams sat at the desk assigned to the Senate’s secretary. Intimidated by Washington’s presence, senators found it difficult to concentrate on the treaty’s provisions as Adams read them aloud. After hearing the contents of several supporting documents, members decided they needed more time. An angry president spoke for the first time during the proceedings: “This defeats every purpose of my being here!” Although he returned two days later to observe additional debate and the treaty’s approval, he conducted all further treaty business with the Senate in writing. I have to side with the senate on this. How could they discuss anything without reading it first? Both Washington and Adams gave the SotUA to Congress each year. It was Jefferson who stopped the practice. Wilson revived it. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-someone-a-liar-in-congress/730174/23 "2015-09-07T15:09:05Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > “_Mr. Speaker, with all due respect, you’re an asshole!_” QFT ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-someone-a-liar-in-congress/730174/24 "2015-09-07T15:17:41Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > In the US, you’ll note that a senators speech begins by addressing the speaker as “Mr President” (of the Senate). This convention was set up specifically to help avoid the kind of behavior seen in GB. Or so I read, possibly in “Founding Brothers”. In the UK \*\*all \*\*statements are directed to the Speaker, even when responding to something someone else said. It’s a bit like two kids at the dinner table not speaking to each other: “Mom, could you ask Bobby to pass the salt?” “Mom, could you tell Angela that salt will make her look even more bloated than she already does?” etc. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-someone-a-liar-in-congress/730174/25 "2015-09-07T15:37:20Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > I remember occasionally watching C-SPAN back in the 80s. They had only ever showed congressmen making long speeches (often to an almost completely empty chamber\*!\*) Then one day they showed the British version, and I remember thinking, _“Ah, is this normal? Or is the UK on the brink of revolution?!”_ It was like nothing you ever see in American congressional debates, especially when the British Prime Minister is also right in there with them. The UK parliament is particularly lively during [Prime Minister’s Questions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Minister's_Questions), when the PM spends thirty minutes answering questions. It’s hilarious to hear the flowery language used and the raucousness of the backbenchers. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-someone-a-liar-in-congress/730174/26 "2015-09-07T16:04:35Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > As far as I know US Presidents never ‘debate’ congressmen in anyway like that. Not on the open floor at least\*!\* It’s important to remember that the Prime Minister is a member of the legislature himself; first among equals, if you like. The POTUS is not a member of Congress, so it would be a bit weird for him to show up for a congressional debate. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-someone-a-liar-in-congress/730174/27 "2015-09-07T16:50:32Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > In the UK \*\*all \*\*statements are directed to the Speaker, even when responding to something someone else said. Theoretically, but at PMQs it’s more and more the case that the PM and Leader of the Opposition respond directly to each other - “You were the future once” and all that sort of thing. But in debates and more routine business they still stick to “Is the Honourable Member aware that he just said all that out loud?” (or whatever). For real rumbunctiousness you have to look to Canberra. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-someone-a-liar-in-congress/730174/28 "2015-09-07T18:29:25Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > … > > I have to side with the senate on this. How could they discuss anything without reading it first?.. I presume you’re referring to the House Majority Leader’s “We have to pass it to find out what’s in it” remark about the recent Affordable Health Care Act. (Vid cite: [http://youtu.be/hV-05TLiiLU](http://youtu.be/hV-05TLiiLU)) ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-someone-a-liar-in-congress/730174/29 "2015-09-07T22:35:00Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > It’s interesting though as an aside that many UK people seem embarassed by that ‘yah-boo’ side of things, but nearly every non-UKer I encounter is extremely jealous of it! Grass is always greener, I suppose… Once I understood that the UK Parliament does this regularly, yes, I too thought it was awesome to watch politicians ‘debate’ like this and so wished we had it here in the US\*!\* However, it does seem that only the oh-so polite and ‘stiff-upper-lip’ English could pull this off without it eventually (and inevitably) turning into a brawl every time (as someone mentioned it often doing just that in other countries’ Parliaments\*!\*) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Cugel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cugel/32/1199_2.png) [@Cugel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cugel)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-someone-a-liar-in-congress/730174/30 "2015-09-08T10:37:35Z")
> [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > It seems that although you may not call another member of parliament a liar, you can call them a: scum-bag, brain damaged, a “stupid foul-mouthed grub”, “like a lizard on a rock - alive, but looking dead”, an “intellectual rust bucket”, cheat, fraud, drone, “irrelevant, useless and immoral”, a “complete political harlot”, clown, dullard, bag-man, “mindless, useless, idealistic, unprincipled”. And that was just Paul Keating 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-someone-a-liar-in-congress/730174/31 "2015-09-08T14:48:07Z")
Calling someone a liar in the House could get you censured for unparliamentary language. It happened to William Bynum in 1890. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-someone-a-liar-in-congress/730174/32 "2015-09-08T16:04:03Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Once I understood that the UK Parliament does this regularly, yes, I too thought it was awesome to watch politicians ‘debate’ like this and so wished we had it here in the US\*!\* However, it does seem that only the oh-so polite and ‘stiff-upper-lip’ English could pull this off without it eventually (and inevitably) turning into a brawl every time (as someone mentioned it often doing just that in other countries’ Parliaments\*!\*) 😃 Oftentimes it’s the public that does the violence - in the 1970s someone threw tear gas in there! ---
**Author:** ![RadicalPi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/radicalpi/32/9806_2.png) [@RadicalPi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadicalPi)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2015, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-someone-a-liar-in-congress/730174/33 "2015-09-08T17:57:56Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The Senate frowns on such things. I think they believe in congeniality or some such nonsense and calling someone a liar on the floor would raise some eyebrows, although in recent years they wouldn’t raise much. I’m pretty sure the word is “collegiality,” but I am at a loss in understanding why you think such an idea makes no sense. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-someone-a-liar-in-congress/730174/34 "2015-09-10T19:32:26Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > So I guess you would never hear in the House of Commons the famous words a German MP (who would later become Foreign Minister) directed towards the Speaker of the House: > > “_Mr. Speaker, with all due respect, you’re an asshole!_” I know a judge who is absolutely convinced that “With all due respect” is code for “Fuck you!” > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > The UK parliament is particularly lively during [Prime Minister’s Questions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Minister's_Questions), when the PM spends thirty minutes answering questions. It’s hilarious to hear the flowery language used and the raucousness of the backbenchers. Hear, hear! Shame, shame! :: harrumph :: > [@PatrickLondon](#): > > …For real rumbunctiousness you have to look to Canberra. No, Taipei: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6l8jWHXodQ0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6l8jWHXodQ0) > [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Oftentimes it’s the public that does the violence - in the 1970s someone threw tear gas in there! The U.S. has, alas, not been immune from such unpleasantness: > **[Caning of Charles Sumner](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_of_Charles_Sumner)** > > The caning of Charles Sumner, or the Brooks–Sumner Affair, occurred on May 22, 1856, in the United States Senate chamber, when Representative Preston Brooks, a pro-slavery Democrat from South Carolina, used a walking cane to attack Senator Charles Sumner, an abolitionist Republican from Massachusetts. The attack was in retaliation for an invective-laden speech given by Sumner two days earlier in which he fiercely criticized slaveholders, including pro-slavery South Carolina Senator Andrew Butler,... > **[1954 United States Capitol shooting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Capitol_shooting_incident_(1954))** > > The 1954 United States Capitol shooting was an attack on March 1, 1954, by four Puerto Rican nationalists seeking to promote Puerto Rican independence from the United States. They fired 30 rounds from semi-automatic pistols onto the legislative floor from the Ladies' Gallery (a balcony for visitors) of the House of Representatives chamber within the United States Capitol. > The nationalists, identified as Lolita Lebrón, Rafael Cancel Miranda, Andres Figueroa Cordero, and Irvin Flores Rodríguez, u... ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-someone-a-liar-in-congress/730174/35 "2015-09-10T20:38:25Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > I presume you’re referring to the House Majority Leader’s “We have to pass it to find out what’s in it” remark about the recent Affordable Health Care Act. (Vid cite: [http://youtu.be/hV-05TLiiLU](http://youtu.be/hV-05TLiiLU)) The quote is “…we have to pass the bill so that **you** can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy.” (My bolding). “We have to pass it to find out what’s in it” is a common right-wing misquotation. ---
**Author:** ![MrSBaldrick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/87869e/32.png) [@MrSBaldrick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrSBaldrick)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2015, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-someone-a-liar-in-congress/730174/36 "2015-09-11T02:56:50Z")
In New Zealand’s Parliament (unicameral/one house), the only exciting bits are question time (2pm - 3pm, each Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday when in session) and when contentious legislation is being debated. Like our neighbours to the west, question time is quite often comparable to the behaviours in the UK parliamentary system, as this is where the opposition actually get to question Ministers (and the Prime Minister) directly with the opportunity for follow-up questions. The rest of the time … well lets say it would aid insomniacs greatly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calling-someone-a-liar-in-congress/730174.md?page=1)