# Calm Dialogue or ACT UP! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2002, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788 "2002-08-27T16:05:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/61 "2002-08-29T15:38:52Z")
Sorry; skipped this: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > **. . . I don’t get how you think you canbe dehumanized by fundie bigotry. I am the judge of how I feel about myself . . .** You know _damn_ well what I mean by this. They don’t change the way I feel about myself, but allowing them and their _message_ of dehumanization to be taken seriously keeps it afloat in society and in the political world. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/62 "2002-08-29T15:44:49Z")
> [@](#): > > You know damn well what I mean by this. They don’t change the way I feel about myself, but allowing them and their message of dehumanization to be taken seriously keeps it afloat in society and in the political world. Read the post again: > [@](#): > > I want them to be impotent and fangless, and the best way to accomplish that goal, is to show how stupid and baseless their arguments are, not to shriek like a Boston fishwife. I’m NOT taking them seriously–I’mtrying to show how ridiculous their views are. Instead of merely calling them “stupid,” which is easy for them to ignore, I want to show WHY and HOW their views are stupid. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/63 "2002-08-29T15:49:34Z")
By engaging them at all you are taking them seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/64 "2002-08-29T16:03:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\*Who the hell are you, Apos and hansel, to demand the “right” to debate my humanity, as if it were some kind of parlor game? > > More to the point, where the hell (screaming again here) do you get the pulsating nerve to demand that _I_ join in the debate, sipping tea with my pinky akimbo? > \*\* Because this is a _DEBATE_ forum! ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/65 "2002-08-29T16:19:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*. . . I don’t get how you think you canbe dehumanized by fundie bigotry. I am the judge of how I feel about myself. . . . \*\* You know, the more I think about it (or try not to), the more this gets on my tits, gobear. The institution of slavery depended upon the _dehumanization_ of African (forced-) immigrants. Not a single individual _human_ African American was actually _made_ any less human, but for slavery to exist required the institutionalized dehumanization of the entire race. Institutionalized homophobia requires exactly the same thing. H4E and her fellows come to the “debate” with the societally supported presumption that _you_ are less than fully human, and you smile obsequiously and agree to play by their rules. As long as you continue to roll over and agree that your humanity is open to debate, you are as much a part of the problem as she is. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/66 "2002-08-29T16:23:32Z")
I’m sorry, autz, did we wake you? Here’s a tip, for when you join the grownups’ “_DEBATE_ forum”: it’s considered bad form to delete, without ellipses, that part of the debate you’re quoting that answers your own stupid question. Cute, but stupid. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/67 "2002-08-29T16:26:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*. . . I’m NOT taking them seriously–I’mtrying to show how ridiculous their views are. Instead of merely calling them “stupid,” which is easy for them to ignore, I want to show WHY and HOW their views are stupid. \*\* Yes; you’ve proven _mighty hard_ for them to ignore. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/68 "2002-08-29T16:30:03Z")
> [@](#): > > As long as you continue to roll over and agree that your humanity is open to debate, you are as much a part of the problem as she is. We’re not debating our humanity nor our rights. We’re debating _their_ beliefs. If we’re lucky we get one of them to open their minds. But the side benefit is that we strengthen our position with undecided observers. If both sides are shrieking insults at one another, the folks on the side can walk away shaking their heads and dismissing **both** as unreasonable. Moving the middle towards us, I think, is the most effective tactic. [sub]And I smile condescendingly BTW[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/69 "2002-08-29T16:30:16Z")
Well, **lissener** , you seem to be engaging them rather extensively. And I have still to see where anyone in this thread has “denied you your humanity”. How is this accomplished? By disagreeing with you? By disapproving of some of your behavior? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by **lissener** - > > Well, I am the subject of H4E’s “opinion,” and I’m here to tell you that she’s flat out wrong, and I’m suggesting that she should be ignored and marginalized for holding such an “opinion.” For me, it is nondebatable and non-negotiable. If it is so non-debatable, what are you doing in Great Debates? Your position seems to be “ **His4ever** is wrong because she simply states her position and won’t back it up. But I am right, because I will simply state my position, and won’t back it up.” I thought Jack Chick pamphlets were the only places where a position is stated dogmatically, and everyone simply falls at their feet and worships. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/70 "2002-08-29T16:36:29Z")
Shodan, pay attention: my point is that it’s not a _position_: it’s a person. It’s me in fact. _I_\* am not debatable. And to state the obvious, I’m not engaging H4E, I’m engaging gobear and Apos, et al. And where have I not “backed it up”? What am I, typing in Sanskrit? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/71 "2002-08-29T16:39:53Z")
Well, IMVHO, debate seems to have worked with **dreamer**. She’s now ‘focussing on grace’ (WTM). Maybe H4E is just a tougher nutty to crack. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/72 "2002-08-29T16:53:05Z")
**Lissener** , you are invited to the [Pit](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/newthread.php?action=newthread&forumid=5). ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/73 "2002-08-29T16:58:48Z")
Have fun, gobear, you’ve put me to sleep. I’m going back to bed. ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/74 "2002-08-29T17:17:49Z")
I do have to agree with **hansel** on one point: Debate is obviously pointless when one side of the argument **can not** support their argument, yet people with no honor nor sense of logic will still claim they have a valid opinion. As **tagos** ’ post shows, anyone worth caring about has the sense to see through the idiotic arguments of the fundies- there is no use in trying to debate them, especially when they are either incapable or unwilling to back up their position. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/75 "2002-08-29T17:30:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*_Shodan, pay attention: my point is that it’s not a position: it’s a person. It’s me in fact. I_ am not debatable. > > And to state the obvious, I’m not engaging H4E, I’m engaging gobear and Apos, et al. > > And where have I not “backed it up”? What am I, typing in Sanskrit? \*\* Your point is ridiculous. And you haven’t “backed it up” anywhere - you keep saying it is non-debatable and non-negotiable. In Great Debates. If you don’t want to debate, then don’t debate. But don’t complain that you are being dehumanized because a) people disagree with you, or b) that they expect you to abide by the same standards as everyone else. You disagree with some behavior of posters here. You decline to present any reasoning as to why we should agree with you. **His4ever** disagrees with some behavior of yours, and declines to argue why. This you consider dehumanizing and horrid. If it is dehumanizing to dismiss you for having gay sex, why is it not dehumanizing to dismiss everyone else in GD? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/76 "2002-08-29T17:39:07Z")
—This is just theory and academic debate for you and Apos, hansel.— No, it’s a theory of HONESTY for me, lissener. It’s a question of hearts and minds on an issue that’s one of the most important out there today. It’s a question of you getting so used to these sloppy tactics that you start using them indescriminately: telling people like me what I think and feel, confusing your and my ultimate moral opinions with the valdity of a particular biblical exegesis. ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/77 "2002-08-29T17:40:40Z")
**Shodan** , one distinct difference between **Lissener** and **His4Ever** is that fundies don’t live in fear of being beaten and murdered for expressing themselves. When we are dealing with **real world consequences** of the hate that **H4E** chooses to spread, we have a _right_ to stand up and say **no** , we will not listen to your hate filled bullshit anymore! ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/78 "2002-08-29T21:05:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grendel72 \* > **I do have to agree with hansel on one point: Debate is obviously pointless when one side of the argument can not support their argument, yet people with no honor nor sense of logic will still claim they have a valid opinion.** You’ve seriously misinterpreted me; I hope it wasn’t intentional. I said that there’s no point in posting to a message board, in a forum called Great Debates, if you have no intention of engaging in a useful conversation. There is purpose in responding, though, as gobear and Homebrew have done, because there are lurkers who may read the thread and find something worth thinking about, and there’s the odd possibility that an intransigent position may crack under the prolonged assault of reason (it’s happened before here). Your backhanded slap at gobear and Homebrew (“people with no honor nor sense of logic”) is certainly not my position, which is that opposing such instransigence with more of the same is just as useless. To rationally debate a fundamentalist position (from any ideology) does not validate it, if what one’s doing is using reason to dismantle it. ---
**Author:** ![Palo\_Verde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Palo\_Verde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palo_Verde)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/79 "2002-08-29T21:23:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > \*\*I’m sorry, autz, did we wake you? > > Here’s a tip, for when you join the grownups’ “_DEBATE_ forum”: it’s considered bad form to delete, without ellipses, that part of the debate you’re quoting that answers your own stupid question. Cute, but stupid. \*\* Do you honestly, in your heart of hearts, believe that this response was called for? After giving my opinion, do you _really_ think it is appropriate to call (or imply) that I am a) asleep b) childish c) stupid If you haven’t figured out yet why you are turning people off (despite the righteousness of your position), then really thinking about this response might give you a clue. ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/80 "2002-08-29T21:30:58Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by hansel_ > using reason to dismantle it. That is where the mistake lies. You cannot “use reason to dismantle” something that is completely unreasonable. You might as well use an allen wrench to undo a phillips head screw. If you want to use reason against the unreasonable, go ahead I won’t stop you. What irks me is that the fundie bigots always start the fight, and the rest of us are held to standards our opponents don’t even understand. **They** started it, yet we are the ones berated for not “respecting their opinions”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788.md?page=5)