# Calm Dialogue or ACT UP! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2002, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788 "2002-08-27T16:05:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/81 "2002-08-29T23:09:34Z")
–They started it, yet we are the ones berated for not “respecting their opinions”.– At what point did anyone say that you should respect His4ever’s opinion, as if it’s something you should consider? At what point was her opinion called “respectable”? Gobear and Homebrew said that being abusive or scornful towards His4Ever wasn’t helpful, that the tactic of shouting her down with contempt wasn’t a winner, and for this they were called “Uncle Toms” and “appeasers”. At any time, did gobear and Homebrew concede anything His4ever said? Did they ever utter a “yes, but…” or a “you may be right, however…”? The problem here is that you, lissener, and Kirkland have taken gobear and Homebrew’s attempts to moderate the debate as an attack on your humanity, which it isn’t. You’re being held to the same standard that they’re applying to His4ever, and you look just as bad as she does when you ignore it. –You cannot “use reason to dismantle” something that is completely unreasonable. – Nonsense. You use reason to expose its contradictions, its arbitrariness, it’s near perfect subjectivity. You use reason to show that what sounds plausible on the surface is riddled with idiosyncracy and preference. What happens with every Creationist who shows up here? They post some screed about not being descended from monkeys, and the hordes pour on with evidence and with logic, and the Creationist slinks away under a withering assault of knowledgeable arguments. And lurkers like me find out more about evolution than they ever heard in class. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/82 "2002-08-29T23:19:02Z")
I do not have a horse in this race, but I feel compelled to make a couple of comments: I vouch that **Homebrew** is telling the truth about the change of perspective among some over at the Pizza Parlor. And it comes from speaking the truth forthrightly with evident caring about what the other person things, and engaging in debate, even when it seems unlikely you will succeed. Second, _I_ am one of the people who has learned a great deal about what injures gay people from reading discussions like this. In particular, I saw how deeply **Kirkland** was injured by uncaring remarks from a few people who claimed to be his spiritual brothers and sisters. There is, I think, a place for both rational discourse, even among those who seem farthest apart in their views, and for polemic speech that awakens people to the extent to which evil masquerading as good causes harm to others. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2002, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/83 "2002-08-29T23:55:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \* > **_You_ guys can debate it as much as you like: it’s dry abstraction for you (“Hmmm; that’s an interesting question. Let’s look at the text, shall we?”). It’s not about text and interpretation and debatable points and someone else’s _opinion_ for me: it is me and my life and place and time on this planet and my _self_.** Right, because it’s just not possible for me, a straight guy, to empathize with you, or that I might have close friends who are gay and have seen some of their problems firsthand, or that I might actually know a homosexual or lesbian who got beaten up for being gay. I can’t possibly know what you live with, so my opinions are worthless. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lissener \*\*\* > Who the hell are you, Apos and hansel, to demand the “right” to debate my humanity, as if it were some kind of parlor game? > > Well, of course, ultimately you do have that right, just as you have the right to debate if maybe blacks _are_ inferior to whites, or evolution _is_ “just a theory.” But doing so makes you, in my book, a part of the problem and not a part of the solution. > > More to the point, where the hell (screaming again here) do you get the pulsating nerve to demand that _I_ join in the debate, sipping tea with my pinky akimbo? > > You guys want to play angels-on-a-pin game with me and my _self_, you’ll get no cooperation from me, and shame on your for demanding it. \*\* What a load of self-righteous twaddle. When did I attempt to debate your humanity? The fact that I didn’t offer to fetch the tar and feathers makes me a collaborationist? You’re trying to demonize His4ever, and anyone who won’t help. Now you’ve equated what I said with racism. Apparently, I’m now the one who held the nails for Matthew Shepherd. I didn’t demand that you join the debate, and neither did gobear or Homebrew. They said only that being abusive and scornful doesn’t help. ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/84 "2002-08-30T01:14:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hansel \* > **You’re being held to the same standard that they’re applying to His4ever, and you look just as bad as she does when you ignore it.** That’s funny, I see two seperate spin off threads (one of them is in the pit and has silently dropped off the radar) berating **Lissener**. When **WVWoman** butted into a thread that had previously had nothing to do with fundamentalism, did she get pitted? When **H4E** joined in and refused to listen to refutations of her points, did she get pitted? Never mind the pit, did anyone start a new thread dedicated to berating them _anywhere_? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hansel \* > What happens with every Creationist who shows up here? They post some screed about not being descended from monkeys, and the hordes pour on with evidence and with logic, and the Creationist slinks away under a withering assault of knowledgeable arguments. And lurkers like me find out more about evolution than they ever heard in class. \*\* … And goes on to spread their lies elsewhere. The best that can be hoped for with someone who is completely and utterly unreasonable is to drive them away. They say themselves that their minds can’t be changed. They blatantly ignore reason and logic. As far as the argument of “what will the lurkers think”- I apparently give lurkers a lot more credit than you guys do. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/85 "2002-08-30T02:54:23Z")
Um, hello? Can we please chill here? **lissener** , can’t we have a mature adult discussion without screaming? I know you don’t like the Bible, but there is that thing about throwing stones and what not… ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/86 "2002-08-30T05:24:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*. . . **lissener**. . . I know you don’t like the Bible, . . . \*\* Please quote me to support this. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/87 "2002-08-30T12:49:08Z")
I’m surprised to be agreeing with **Lissener** but he’s right up to a point. There comes a point where it’s degrading to give an obviously insane arguement the dignity of a reasoned reply. When Sweat Willy was spewing his anti-semitic agenda, this was touched on. I don’t think it’s worth debating a Jew-hater rationally as it implies that there’s something of value in what they have to say. The whole point of Great Debates isn’t to “win” versus the person you’re arguing against, it’s to convince all those undecided lurkers. I feel (and I can’t prove) that the best way to this sort of ‘debate’ is to show that it’s so self-evidently stupid that it can just be laughed at. If one takes it seriously, pull out numbers and graphs one comes across as defensive. On the other hand, if one simply laughs “You’re pulling out the old ‘Jews control the money suppy?’ bit? Bwah-haha! Gimme your paycheck then, punk”, you send a message of contempt and unconcern. And besides, there’s nothing a bigot hates more than being laughed at. On the other hand, shreiking and screaming and name-calling just gives the bigot that much more power and makes you look defensive. AFAIK, mocking’s the way to go. Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/88 "2002-08-30T13:08:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > \*\*On the other hand, shreiking and screaming and name-calling just gives the bigot that much more power and makes you look defensive. > > AFAIK, mocking’s the way to go. > Fenris \*\* Which might indicate to the bigot that he has a valid point. Bigotry stems mainly from ignorance. Take away the ignorance by showing \* why\* the bigot’s belief is wrong or that it is at least a relative view, not an absolute truth. Mostly they’re just repeating catch phrases, give them material to think those over with. Changing someone’s long held views cannot be done overnight but if you do not sow the seads of doubt, nothing will change for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/89 "2002-08-30T13:11:08Z")
\*seeds ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/90 "2002-08-30T13:20:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grendel72 \* > \*\ ***Shodan** , one distinct difference between **Lissener** and **His4Ever** is that fundies don’t live in fear of being beaten and murdered for expressing themselves. When we are dealing with **real world consequences** of the hate that **H4E** chooses to spread, we have a _right_ to stand up and say **no** , we will not listen to your hate filled bullshit anymore! \*\* I imagine your chances of being beaten and murdered on an anonymous messageboard are fairly remote. So on the SDMB at least, I would say the rules of civilized discourse still apply. Of course, if you like I will cite some instances of Christians being murdered and persecuted, and then they can have the right to scream as well. Unless you are arguing that Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, China, and so forth aren’t “the real world”. And to be perfectly honest, **Hisever** is not the one expressing hate here. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\* > There is, I think, a place for both rational discourse, even among those who seem farthest apart in their views, and for polemic speech that awakens people to the extent to which evil masquerading as good causes harm to others._\* I agree. The first is GD; the other is the Pit. People know, I think, how much weight to give to posts in each forum. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/91 "2002-08-30T13:33:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Latro \* > \*\* > > Which might indicate to the bigot that he has a valid point. > Bigotry stems mainly from ignorance. Take away the ignorance by showing \* why\* the bigot’s belief is wrong or that it is at least a relative view, not an absolute truth. > Mostly they’re just repeating catch phrases, give them material to think those over with. > > Changing someone’s long held views cannot be done overnight but if you do not sow the seads of doubt, nothing will change for sure. \*\* See, I don’t _care_ about the bigot. He’s only one asshole. I care about the undecideds in the audience. And giving the bigot the dignity of taking him seriously gives him creedence. (Which is why I don’t favor the “shriek and call names” approach: it makes the shrieker seem defensive) Mocking him, laughing at him _undermines_ him. It says “His arguement is so _stupid_ that his opponent doesn’t feel the need to respond except by laughing.” The technique can be overdone, the technique can be misused, but how _else_ does one respond to (say) Jack Dean Tyler when he claimed that circumcision is ‘a Jewish plot to emmasculate non-Jewish men’? Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/92 "2002-08-30T15:55:44Z")
> [@](#): > > And to be perfectly honest, His4ever is not the one expressing hate here. I don’t think that she was expressing hate. My opinion is that she ws displaying ignorance. That is the difference between her and Sweet Willy. I also don’t think that the others here were expressing hate. They were expressing anger. Perhaps not just at His4ever, but also at those who people who while claiming to hold similar beliefs have ostracized them throughout their whole lives. Fenris states > [@](#): > > On the other hand, shreiking and screaming and name-calling just gives the bigot that much more power and makes you look defensive. It also feeds into their martyr complex. If you scream at them and insult them, they can then go to their like-minded friends and say thoe non-Christians just tried to drown me out so they wouldn’t have to hear the truth. For some of them, this would constitute a victory. If you politely and ratinally shoot down their theories, you have a chance at changing their minds and you make their theories seem foolish and small. If they keep at it, you can use mockery and sarcasm. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/93 "2002-08-30T16:42:15Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by brujo \* > \*\* . . . If you politely and ratinally shoot down their theories, you have a chance at changing their minds and you make their theories seem foolish and small. . . ._\* . . . Except that with the people we’re specifically talking about here, you _have_ no such chance: they are–proudly!–immune to logic. Their claim to have gotten their beliefs from a close reading of Biblical text is a straw man–a _lie_ (see my [post above](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=2401746&highlight=Leviticus#post2401746): “_They don’t hate gays because God says so; they say ‘God says so’ because they hate gays._”)–so an even closer reading of the text will get you nowhere. It will just expose the lie, which they’re not willing to admit even to themselves, and draw nothing from them but the old “It’s what I believe and you will never change my mind.” In other words, for the ones who won’t debate with you in good faith, debating with them is a waste of your time and theirs. What’s the line? _Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig._ I can think of few other situations which so closely parallel that silly little “axiom.” But again (and _again_ and _again_ and _again_), shrieking is just as must a waste of time. Either way, you’re taking them way too seriously. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/94 "2002-08-30T16:59:07Z")
I’m sorry; I meant to conclude that last post by addressing the “But we do it for the lurkers!” thing. Well, duh. I’m here, aren’t I? I mean, I advocate basically ignoring them, but I’m not doing so, right? _That’s_ what I’m doing for the lurkers. In other words, rather than simply and completely ignore anti-gay ingorance, I do of course believe it’s important to _tell_ the ignorant that you’re going to ignore them. Sounds silly, I know, but again it’s for the lurkers, or IRL for third parties. Which is why, again ( **Mods** : can we change the name of this forum to “Great Cyclical Redundancies Swirling Endlessly Around the Debate”?), my approach is to tell the ignorant that _they_ are the outcasts, and that they should be ostracized from a reasonable society, not me. And that I will refuse to “debate” them politey from inside the closet: _They_ built the closet, they can retreat to it. That’s the most important thing I’m fighting for here. We need a paradigm shift regarding who’s on which side of the closet door. ---
**Author:** ![Uncle\_Toby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b3f665/32.png) [@Uncle\_Toby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncle_Toby)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/95 "2002-08-30T17:33:48Z")
First let me say that I think homosexuality is a perversion. The definition of perversion is an important part of this statement. My understanding of it is, a persistent behavior which is damaging to the life (including reproduction) of the organism. It doesn’t matter if it’s genetically determined or not. Then let me add that nearly every human being I’ve ever known had some kind of perversion, (I smoke a pipe, arguably far more damaging and perverse than homosexuality). I don’t think perversions should be constitutionally protected but I do think if they don’t directly injure other people they should be indulged. I don’t think perversions should be normalized. I would never think of presenting pipe smoking as being as valuable as more wholesome activities. Rational argument would be most likely to change my mind. Activism would have no affect on my opinion and would make me less indulgent, if anything, but then I’m bull-headed. ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/96 "2002-08-30T18:32:19Z")
lissener: > [@](#): > > And that I will refuse to “debate” them politey from inside the closet: They built the closet, they can retreat to it. No one is saying get back in the closet. At least I’m not. The only thing I’m saying is don’t sink to their level. If your argument regarding the wrongness of their beliefs is correct, and I think it is, don’t detract from the arguement by adding insults and yelling. The majority of us here will see that you are right without it. ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/97 "2002-08-30T18:39:08Z")
If your reason for opposing **Lissener** s tactics is to convince lurkers, I think y’all have made a _major_ tactical error. Anyone can plainly see that **Lissener** has caught more shit over his statements than **H4E** has over hers. I think we can all agree that calling homosexuality “unnatural” and calling fundamentalism a “cult” are just about equally supportable statements- Yet the poster who says one thing gets mollycoddled and the other poster gets bitch slapped. What the fuck kind of message are you guys trying to send? It’s OK to hate as long as you don’t hate fundies? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/98 "2002-08-30T18:52:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Uncle Toby \* > **First let me say that I think homosexuality is a perversion. . . . Then let me add that . . . I smoke a pipe. . . .** See what I mean? As long as it’s _OK_ on this board to equate _who I am as a person_ with pipe smoking, the battle remains unwon. Uncle Toby, the point of the debate is that we’re not talking about behaviors but about the essence of a person’s being. Homosexuality can validly be compared to race or stature or gender, etc., but by comparing it to pipe smoking (visual pun unintended, but enjoyed nonetheless) you declare your inability (or at least unpreparedness) to advance the substance of this debate. And brujo, I very clearly am not sinking to their level: I refuse to debate Biblical minutiae with someone who offers it only as a ruse to refuse to examine their own beliefs. I am (I hope) rising above their level by not “adding insults and yelling.” The only people I’ve intentionally yelled at are not the homophobes, but the Uncle Toms who would legitimize the homophobes by _sinking to their level_ and engaging with their bad-faith debates. And as far as name calling, I don’t consider pointing out the bankruptcy and hypocrisy of their position (describing them as _pseudochristians_) to be name calling: as I see it, it’s an attempt to demystify their position by pointing out (largely to third parties/lurkers) that their claims of following the teachings of Christ are hollow and hypocritical. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/99 "2002-08-30T18:53:14Z")
Sorry, **Uncle Toby** , your definition doesn’t fit with any of the online dictionaries I’ve consulted. Almost everyone of them indicate that the term “perversion” is used to show disapproval and used two different ways. The first is “The act of perverting, or the state of being perverted; a turning from truth or right; a diverting from the true intent or object; a change to something worse; a turning or applying to a wrong end or use.” The second use is to indicate “a form of sexual behavior considered to be abnormal or unnatural”. The instances of homosexuality throughout the animal kingdom seems to indicate there is nothing abbormal or unnatural about it. Both definitions imply a moral judgement and therefore I will not accept being called a pervert. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2002, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788/100 "2002-08-30T19:02:46Z")
And **grendel72** , I do of course appreciate that you understand and appreciate what I’m trying to say, but I would like to clear up one possible misconception: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grendel72 \* > **. . . I think we can all agree that calling homosexuality “unnatural” and calling fundamentalism a “cult” are just about equally supportable statements . . .** In case this was your implication, I’d like to point out that _I_ never said that fundamentalism was a cult. I’ve been very careful, I thought, that I’m not talking about fundamentalists on the whole, but only those people who quote the Bible when it supports their own prejudices and dismiss it when it does not; those whom I’ve referred to, for convenience’s sake, as “pseudochristians.” That’s largely why I coined that term for this debate: to define very clearly exactly whom I’m talking about. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/calm-dialogue-or-act-up/125788.md?page=6)