# Caltech is on NCAA probation **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 16, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caltech-is-on-ncaa-probation/628453 "2012-07-16T22:47:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caltech-is-on-ncaa-probation/628453/1 "2012-07-16T22:47:19Z")
[At the least they’re willing to go after somebody](http://www.latimes.com/sports/college/basketball/la-sp-plaschke-cal-tech-20120715,0,4643830.column): > [@](#): > > In the wake of a scathing Penn State report that fractured faith in the integrity of college athletics comes the news that, buried under an astrophysics books somewhere, there is still hope. Caltech, the school that couldn’t succeed at sports if it cheated, has turned itself in to the NCAA for cheating. One of the country’s losingest athletic programs has chosen to vacate wins it doesn’t have, shut down the recruiting it doesn’t do and be ineligible for championships it never wins. > > … > > The NCAA has a rule that student-athletes must be taking a full course load to be eligible. Though Caltech students are studying from the moment they set foot on campus, they don’t officially take a full course load until the end of the third week of every term because they are allowed to shop the difficult classes before making final decisions. That’s kinda the ultimate in technicalities, but that’s apparently enough for a three year probation. Good thing they’re cracking down on the serious crimes, eh? ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caltech-is-on-ncaa-probation/628453/2 "2012-07-16T23:37:49Z")
It’s not about the NCAA going after Caltech, it’s about CalTech _doing the right thing_. Their new athletic director discovered violations occurring and decided to report them. In light of the discussion going on over in the Penn State thread, in which people are disagreeing about when and how to report child rape, CalTech is making it clear that they know their reporting responsibilities. I find it admirable, and hopefully the publicity will encourage other schools to report violations instead of trying to cover them up. ---
**Author:** ![Wargamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Wargamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wargamer)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2012, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caltech-is-on-ncaa-probation/628453/3 "2012-07-16T23:57:48Z")
What was the old saying about SEC football - That the NCAA was so mad at Alabama that they put West Kentucky State on probation? ---
**Author:** ![President\_Johnny\_Gentle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@President\_Johnny\_Gentle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/President_Johnny_Gentle)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caltech-is-on-ncaa-probation/628453/4 "2012-07-17T00:04:21Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > I find it admirable, and hopefully the publicity will encourage other schools to report violations instead of trying to cover them up. It is certainly the right thing to do, but isn’t particularly admirable. In fact, most of the violations reported to the NCAA are self-reported. According to ESPN, Big Ten schools alone have reported over 1400 violations since the start of 2006, an average of about 2 dozen per school per year. I’ve seen it mentioned (and not hyperbolically) that every NCAA school commits violations of some sort. Of course, self reporting of major infractions isn’t as common, and, in these, the cover up is often worse than the violation. ---
**Author:** ![mkecane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9e8a1a/32.png) [@mkecane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mkecane)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caltech-is-on-ncaa-probation/628453/5 "2012-07-17T01:21:49Z")
> [@Wargamer](#): > > What was the old saying about SEC football - That the NCAA was so mad at Alabama that they put West Kentucky State on probation? I love that saying, though I’ve heard it as Tark the Shark saying the NCAA was so mad at Kentucky (hoops), they put Cleveland State on probation. The point stands, of course. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caltech-is-on-ncaa-probation/628453/6 "2012-07-19T14:53:25Z")
A few mental exercises to illustrate what’s going on here. I) Which of the following is, morally, the worst? a) Failing to pay your rent on time b) Playing your stereo too loud in your apartment c) Keeping a cat in your apartment, even thought the lease says “No pets” d) Writing racist and anti-semitic articles for a neo-nazi magazine? Can we all agree that D is, morally, FAR worse than the other three offenses? Good- now, which of those offenses is NOT a legitimate reason for a landlord to evict his tenant? II) Which of the following is worst, from a moral standpoint? a) A bartender showing up late for work every night b) A bartender stealing $10.00 from the cash register c) A bartender beating his wife Can we all agree that offense Cis BY FAR the most morally repugnant? Good- now, which of those offenses is NOT a valid reason for the bar owner to fire the bartender? III) Which of the following is worst, from a moral standpoint? a) A restaurant owner who doesn’t wash his hands often enough? b) A restaurant owner who has roaches in the kitchen? c) A restaurant owner who abuses animals in his spare time Easy one right? Now, which of those is NOT a valid reason for the city health inspectors to shut down the restaurant? Get the idea? Of COURSE the NCAA’s rules concern matters far less weighty than child molestation. There are already criminal laws to cover things like that! The NCAA was set up to regulate sports, not to prosecute and imprison criminals. Small violations of recruiting rules ARE a legitimate area for NCAA investigation and punishment. Criminal matters aren’t. When I was a renter, my lease said “No pets.” It didn’t say “No rape” or “No murder.” Does that mean my landlord had warped moral priorities? OF COURSE NOT! It just meant that he knew what fell under his authority and what should fall under police jurisdiction. In the same way, the NCAA is RIGHT to spell out rules about athletic scholarships, but not to write any rules about assault and battery. The latter is a far more serious crime, but it’s NOT a crime that falls under the NCAA’s domain. ---
**Author:** ![PacifistPorcupine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PacifistPorcupine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PacifistPorcupine)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caltech-is-on-ncaa-probation/628453/7 "2012-07-19T15:57:37Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > In the same way, the NCAA is RIGHT to spell out rules about athletic scholarships, but not to write any rules about assault and battery. The latter is a far more serious crime, but it’s NOT a crime that falls under the NCAA’s domain. Are people suggesting that Penn State should be penalized for Sandusky’s crimes, or for the administration covering it up? There’s a difference. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caltech-is-on-ncaa-probation/628453/8 "2012-07-19T16:19:31Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Get the idea? Of COURSE the NCAA’s rules concern matters far less weighty than child molestation. There are already criminal laws to cover things like that! The NCAA was set up to regulate sports, not to prosecute and imprison criminals. You keep making this argument in different threads. I assure you that it does not become more compelling with repetition. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caltech-is-on-ncaa-probation/628453/9 "2012-07-19T17:36:41Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > You keep making this argument in different threads. I assure you that it does not become more compelling with repetition. Are you suggesting the OP’s argument that he’s responding to is an original one? ---
**Author:** ![brad\_d](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@brad\_d](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brad_d)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caltech-is-on-ncaa-probation/628453/10 "2012-07-19T19:15:30Z")
As a Caltech alumnus, I’m getting quite a chuckle out of the whole thing. So are the former classmates I’ve talked to about it. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caltech-is-on-ncaa-probation/628453/11 "2012-07-19T19:37:15Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > You keep making this argument in different threads. I assure you that it does not become more compelling with repetition. I’ll take that under advisement. Meantime, I assure YOU that “Throw the book at people who had NOTHING to do with crimes committed by people who are ALREADY getting punished by the criminal justice system” has NEVER made a lick of sense (mcuh less been compelling) and never will. People are angry. I get that. You want to punish somebody, ANYBODY. I get that. It just so happens there’s NOTHING you can do to the guilty people. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caltech-is-on-ncaa-probation/628453/12 "2012-07-19T20:02:28Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Are you suggesting the OP’s argument that he’s responding to is an original one? No, not really. My main point, i guess, is that **astorian** ’s analogies are fundamentally flawed, precisely because they choose to define what is and is not a “sports-related” incident in a way that completely and conveniently ignores the centrality of sports—and one sport in particular—to the whole Penn State scandal. The main reason that this situation developed in the way it did is precisely related to the place of football within the institution, and the problems outlined in the Freeh report are, almost without exception, problems that occurred precisely because of a desire to protect the football program. If that doesn’t qualify under the NCAA’s institutional control issue, then nothing ever should. Also, part of **astorian** ’s argument is that the NCAA’s role is not “to prosecute and imprison criminals.” But that’s not what is being proposed here. No-one is asking the NCAA to prosecute or imprison anyone. People are simply asking them to impose sanctions in an area that is within their jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2012, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caltech-is-on-ncaa-probation/628453/13 "2012-07-20T13:50:01Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > When I was a renter, my lease said “No pets.” It didn’t say “No rape” or “No murder.” Does that mean my landlord had warped moral priorities? OF COURSE NOT! It just meant that he knew what fell under his authority and what should fall under police jurisdiction. Actually, I’ve had leases that said commission of a felony in/on the rented premises was grounds for eviction. Didn’t spell out which felony, but certainly the landlord wanted to reserve the right for tossing me if I was running a meth lab in the kitchen. ---
**Author:** ![BigAppleBucky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigapplebucky/32/178_2.png) [@BigAppleBucky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigAppleBucky)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caltech-is-on-ncaa-probation/628453/14 "2012-07-22T18:02:31Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > A > When I was a renter, my lease said “No pets.” It didn’t say “No rape” or “No murder.” Does that mean my landlord had warped moral priorities? OF COURSE NOT! It just meant that he knew what fell under his authority and what should fall under police jurisdiction. > > In the same way, the NCAA is RIGHT to spell out rules about athletic scholarships, but not to write any rules about assault and battery. The latter is a far more serious crime, but it’s NOT a crime that falls under the NCAA’s domain. I basically agree with your main contention that criminality outside the college sports arena is not the purview of the NCAA, but I have a quibble with the lease. It’s been well over 30 years since I’ve had a lease, but when I did I believe it did say something about not using the premises for illegal purposes. Not specifically rape or murder, of course. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caltech-is-on-ncaa-probation/628453/15 "2012-07-23T14:02:32Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > When I was a renter, my lease said “No pets.” It didn’t say “No rape” or “No murder.” Does that mean my landlord had warped moral priorities? OF COURSE NOT! It just meant that he knew what fell under his authority and what should fall under police jurisdiction. How carefully did you read your lease? Here is what mine says: “DRUG AND CRIME-FREE HOUSING: You, your Aprroved Occupants, guests and visitors shall not engage in or facilitate any criminal activity anywhere…” And it goes on to say I may be summarily evicted for criminal activity on the basis of “preponderance of evidence” “regardless of the staus of any prosecution”. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caltech-is-on-ncaa-probation/628453/16 "2012-07-23T14:09:46Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > II) Which of the following is worst, from a moral standpoint? > > a) A bartender showing up late for work every night > b) A bartender stealing $10.00 from the cash register > c) A bartender beating his wife > > Can we all agree that offense Cis BY FAR the most morally repugnant? Good- now, which of those offenses is NOT a valid reason for the bar owner to fire the bartender? I believe businesses in the US are generally entitled to fire employees at will, although firing may be contested in exceptional cases such as those involving certain forms of discrimination. I doubt wife-beaters are a protected class. I will add that any violent behavior anywhere should be valid grounds for firing. ---
**Author:** ![colonial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/34f0e0/32.png) [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caltech-is-on-ncaa-probation/628453/17 "2012-07-23T14:37:20Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > III) Which of the following is worst, from a moral standpoint? > > a) A restaurant owner who doesn’t wash his hands often enough? > b) A restaurant owner who has roaches in the kitchen? > c) A restaurant owner who abuses animals in his spare time > > Easy one right? Now, which of those is NOT a valid reason for the city health inspectors to shut down the restaurant? I would be willing to bet a restaurant may loose its license due to criminal activity by its owner. I also believe it would be reasonable to draw analaogy between the NCAA and a municipality rather than between the NCAA and a municipal department. A municipality is responsible for enforcing _all_ local and state law within its jurisdiction, and the NCAA is responsible for enforcing _all_ association rules within its jurisdiction. The issue therefore devolves upon whether Penn State violated NCAA regulations, and hypothetical analogy games are not a defence.