# Camp for "Failure to Launch" Guys: What is your opinion? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 13, 2011, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camp-for-failure-to-launch-guys-what-is-your-opinion/602761 "2011-11-13T03:09:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camp-for-failure-to-launch-guys-what-is-your-opinion/602761/41 "2011-11-14T01:01:17Z")
By the way, I love this quote from the article: > [@](#): > > Sax, the author of “Boys Adrift,” is skeptical. He thinks the true solution is to catch these young men when they are boys — to find them schools with programs that engage them and to limit their access to video games, for instance. Because for the young men in the program now, a time machine to catch them when they are boys is such a practical solution. I don’t see anyone in the article saying “gee, we raised them perfectly and then this…!” and I think everyone would agree that engaging them younger would be a superior solution, but that doesn’t mean this set of young men needs to be Lost Boys. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camp-for-failure-to-launch-guys-what-is-your-opinion/602761/42 "2011-11-14T01:23:01Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Confirmation bias. > > Look at the “stereotypical” young adults from 1968 - they weren’t held up as models of maturity. How about ten years later - 1978 - not quite a decade before I graduated from high school - a lot of those young adults were stoners. The William Shatner “get a life and move out of your parent’s basement” skit was from 1986. > > There are always going to be a small number of people who reach maturity young and accomplish great things - a coworker’s son is one of those amazing young people - working on a degree at Stanford, interning at Google. And there will always be young people who take a bit to reach maturity - or never do. When I was in college in the early 90s, everyone was going on and on about Gen X, the slacker generation–we were lazy entitled idiots who refused to get off our butts and get jobs. Well, I suppose some of us are still lazy, but most of us got our acts together, got jobs, fueled the tech boom, and are now vilified as helicopter parents. Just like every other generation, I suspect. Only now, college costs twice as much as it did when I went–and _that_ pricetag gave my parents sticker shock. My mom used to complain all the time, asking me why I had to ask her for money every few months–after all, she paid her own way through the same college! Then I did the math for her and showed her that, if you figured our paychecks as the same amount, my bills were twice as high–just for rent and tuition. A 20yo now would find those bills doubled again. It’s no longer possible to pay your own way through college, even at an ordinary state school. My youngest sister just graduated last May with a great STEM degree in a useful field with plenty of demand (under normal circumstances)–but at the worst possible moment for finding a job. It took six long, depressing months. That’s pretty off-topic for the OP; I don’t know how I feel about fancy “life skills” camp! ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camp-for-failure-to-launch-guys-what-is-your-opinion/602761/43 "2011-11-14T02:02:04Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I can kind of see the appeal. My brother got out of college just as the economy tanked, and as a result has alternated between living with my folks and moving out doing stints at various temporary jobs. He’s not lazy or spoiled, when he’s working he’s quite good at his jobs and he’s quite capable of taking care of himself. But through a combination of bad luck and not having a ton of marketable skills, he ends up unemployed, sometimes for appreciable lengths of time. > > Anyhoo, when he ends up unemployed, he’s usually pretty active in trying to find a new job, but if it goes on for a few months he understandably gets pretty depressed and kind of shuts down. He’s miserable, it makes my folks pretty miserable and the whole thing gets to be a rather bad scene. Happily these periods so far have ended eventually when he finds a new gig, but if someone was in a similar situation for a longer period of time, I can kind of see where it might be appealing. > > I’m not sure I’d actually recommend the camp (as others have said it seems kind of skammy), but I can understand why it might appeal, and I don’t think the people that would be interested are necessarily all spoiled layabouts. Is he in the US? A US citizen? Does he have a clean criminal record? Did he do drugs? Join the damned military. mrAru spent 20 years in the Navy, made a solid income, if he had loan for college he could have paid it off with no problem. Honestly, if these dicks have a clean record and no drugs, military. Paycheck, never have to worry about what to wear the next day as someone will always be happy to let them know the uniform of the day a week ahead. Unless you seriously fuck up, you won’t be laid off or fired … And people wonder why I favor universal service :dubious::dubious::smack: ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camp-for-failure-to-launch-guys-what-is-your-opinion/602761/44 "2011-11-14T02:05:39Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > I think that there is a tremendous difference between living as a productive member of an extended family, and laying in the mud like a flounder. I think the issue is not when one moves out, but rather when one takes on the responsibilities of a productive adult either while living on one’s own or while living as part of an extended family. Agreed. That should go without saying but as with any typed discussion goes, it’s hard to be specific on every point. I think as far as this thread goes though, we’re discussing children who live at home and play on the computer all day hoping to get a 6 figure income beta testing the next version of WOW. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camp-for-failure-to-launch-guys-what-is-your-opinion/602761/45 "2011-11-14T02:29:20Z")
> [@Carmady](#): > > "The typical U.S. household headed by a person age 65 or older has a net worth 47 times greater than a household headed by someone under 35, according to an analysis of census data released Monday. > > The 47-to-1 gap in net worth between old and young is believed by demographers to be the highest ever, even predating government records." That explains my brother’s strategy. He never moved out, waited for mom to die, and inherited most of the 47 for himself. He’ll be 49 tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camp-for-failure-to-launch-guys-what-is-your-opinion/602761/46 "2011-11-14T02:48:55Z")
They could join the military. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camp-for-failure-to-launch-guys-what-is-your-opinion/602761/47 "2011-11-14T03:55:20Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Is he in the US? A US citizen? Does he have a clean criminal record? Did he do drugs? Join the damned military. mrAru spent 20 years in the Navy, made a solid income, if he had loan for college he could have paid it off with no problem. > > Honestly, if these dicks have a clean record and no drugs, military. Paycheck, never have to worry about what to wear the next day as someone will always be happy to let them know the uniform of the day a week ahead. Unless you seriously fuck up, you won’t be laid off or fired … > > And people wonder why I favor universal service :dubious::dubious::smack: Works for some, I guess. I’ve not been in the situation described, but I can say with 100% certainty that being forced or coerced into the military would have destroyed my life, or at least seriously hampered it. Most of my time would have been spent in the brig (or wherever you get sent when you continually tell your superiors to fuck off and refuse to follow orders) so I guess I’d eventually have been kicked out. With whatever black mark you get from being kicked out of the military, and I’m sure it doesn’t look good on a resume. It’s one of these things, isn’t it? Every time there’s an economic recession, the USA is suddenly full of lazy kids who aren’t interested in working. Make 'em join the Army. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camp-for-failure-to-launch-guys-what-is-your-opinion/602761/48 "2011-11-14T04:02:35Z")
The military in a recession isn’t necessarily a cure all. Might as well say “well, they can always go into a convent or a monastery.” Which was the "well, they can join the military of my grandmother’s (Catholic) generation - if you were a slacker or a woman who didn’t want to marry, teach or nurse, that was your career path. Not everyone has that calling. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camp-for-failure-to-launch-guys-what-is-your-opinion/602761/49 "2011-11-14T07:11:24Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > And for parents who are well off, they earned things. Should he not drive a BMW because his kids might develop an unrealistic sense of entitlement? Should they leave the kids at home while they enjoy a well deserved and easily afforded beach vacation? Do they need to clean their own house when they can easily afford a housekeeper once a week - giving someone else employment? Sure, but there’s always something that a child can reasonably do to contribute in a meaningful way, and at the same time learn useful skills. If the parents are rich enough to hire a gardener, then maybe the kid can help with the landscape design. If Mom and Dad can afford a BMW for Junior, then he can still get an after school job to pay for gas and insurance. If they’re really so blessed that they have servants for every task, then it’s time to find a local charity that needs volunteers. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camp-for-failure-to-launch-guys-what-is-your-opinion/602761/50 "2011-11-14T11:56:36Z")
I would be willing to bet that if you have the choice of obeying orders or brig time, you probably would have benefitted from some discipline. Look, it is your own damned problem for not being able to think it through - behave yourself, take orders and get a paycheck or get dumped into the brig and kicked out with a record that makes it probably you will not be able to get a decent job. People frequently seem to need a boot to the head to come to the realization that you need to work with society not against it. They bitch and whine about the world being against them, or they are owed something but they are not willing to be a valued part of that society. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camp-for-failure-to-launch-guys-what-is-your-opinion/602761/51 "2011-11-14T13:31:28Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > Sure, but there’s always something that a child can reasonably do to contribute in a meaningful way, and at the same time learn useful skills. > > If the parents are rich enough to hire a gardener, then maybe the kid can help with the landscape design. If Mom and Dad can afford a BMW for Junior, then he can still get an after school job to pay for gas and insurance. If they’re really so blessed that they have servants for every task, then it’s time to find a local charity that needs volunteers. Sure. And sometimes that takes. And sometimes the kids develop a huge chip on their shoulder. Because you can treat two different kids the same, and one will develop a duty to public service and the discipline of a work ethic, and the other will wonder “why the hell do I have to…when Mom and Dad could just…” The first kids gets a nice resume to propel them toward the future, the second - the moment they become eighteen - and probably before - says “you can’t make me.” And the “boys” here are pretty much young adults. One of the most frustrating things as a parent is that you can do everything “right” and still end up with a kid that is disappointing in their level of motivation. Or who is selfish. Let’s add the complication of divorced parents - because we’ve seen it a few times in a few threads here recently…“I don’t know what to do with my kid - his Mom spoils him.” Or pushover grandparents that can be depended on for a soft landing. It sounds like a lot of these kids are WoW junkies - who probably don’t have a lot of friends in real life - but 45 - 50 years ago my in laws had a series of friends with failure to launch sleeping on their couches or drinking their coffee or getting fed (too early for Hippies, they were Beatniks - and one of those losers turned out to be Bob Dylan). ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camp-for-failure-to-launch-guys-what-is-your-opinion/602761/52 "2011-11-14T15:12:15Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > If the parents are rich enough to hire a gardener, then maybe the kid can help with the landscape design. In late public school and throughout high school, I hired fellow students to cut lawns and maintain properties (I picked up the contracts through real estate brokers). One pair of parents could not get either of their sons to cut their lawn so they hired my outift. I then hired one of their sons to do the job. The parents were pissed off. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camp-for-failure-to-launch-guys-what-is-your-opinion/602761/53 "2011-11-14T17:22:58Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > In late public school and throughout high school, I hired fellow students to cut lawns and maintain properties (I picked up the contracts through real estate brokers). One pair of parents could not get either of their sons to cut their lawn so they hired my outift. I then hired one of their sons to do the job. The parents were pissed off. LOL I bet they were not paying the same as your company was … I know how much my brother was getting for mowing the lawn before he moved out to college, and I know how much they paid the replacement kid to do it. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camp-for-failure-to-launch-guys-what-is-your-opinion/602761/54 "2011-11-14T18:49:31Z")
One thing I will note is that most of the young people I know who have “failed to launch” are women, not men. I don’t think society sees this as such a crisis, though. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camp-for-failure-to-launch-guys-what-is-your-opinion/602761/55 "2011-11-14T19:40:46Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > It sounds like a lot of these kids are WoW junkies - who probably don’t have a lot of friends in real life - but 45 - 50 years ago my in laws had a series of friends with failure to launch sleeping on their couches or drinking their coffee or getting fed (too early for Hippies, they were Beatniks - and one of those losers turned out to be Bob Dylan). Bob Dylan left home at 18, to go to school. After his first year he went to New York to work on music full time, and spent more or less every evening playing gigs, finding gigs, or practicing. By the time he was 21, he had a manager and had travelled to England to perform and appear on TV. His first album was released when he was 22. I don’t think Bob failed to launch. He was one of the hardest working human beings your in laws ever met. ETA: I should comment on the OP too. I agree with most of the posters who saw “depression” in between the lines of the article. I expected to read it and be infuriated at a bunch of lazy asses, but every specific case they talk about smells of people suffering from mild to moderate depression. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camp-for-failure-to-launch-guys-what-is-your-opinion/602761/56 "2011-11-14T19:57:18Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > I would be willing to bet that if you have the choice of obeying orders or brig time, you probably would have benefitted from some discipline. > > Look, it is your own damned problem for not being able to think it through - behave yourself, take orders and get a paycheck or get dumped into the brig and kicked out with a record that makes it probably you will not be able to get a decent job. That’s a pretty big assumption about me. Perhaps I wasn’t clear - I don’t doubt for a moment that some of these young men would indeed benefit from a spell in the military. I just see it routinely proposed as a “one size fits all” solution and I really don’t think it is. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camp-for-failure-to-launch-guys-what-is-your-opinion/602761/57 "2011-11-14T20:57:44Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Bob Dylan left home at 18, to go to school. After his first year he went to New York to work on music full time, and spent more or less every evening playing gigs, finding gigs, or practicing. By the time he was 21, he had a manager and had travelled to England to perform and appear on TV. His first album was released when he was 22. I don’t think Bob failed to launch. He was one of the hardest working human beings your in laws ever met. > > ETA: I should comment on the OP too. I agree with most of the posters who saw “depression” in between the lines of the article. I expected to read it and be infuriated at a bunch of lazy asses, but every specific case they talk about smells of people suffering from mild to moderate depression. Not according to my mother in law and her friends, who helped him scam out on his rent, watched him steal records from his friends parents, and would invite himself over for dinner because he didn’t have money to feed himself. This was pre-New York during his University of Minnesota days - 1959 and 1960. He was truly dedicated to his music - and worked hard at that. But he didn’t work hard at feeding himself or paying his rent. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camp-for-failure-to-launch-guys-what-is-your-opinion/602761/58 "2011-11-15T00:43:16Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > The military in a recession isn’t necessarily a cure all. Might as well say “well, they can always go into a convent or a monastery.” Which was the "well, they can join the military of my grandmother’s (Catholic) generation - if you were a slacker or a woman who didn’t want to marry, teach or nurse, that was your career path. Not everyone has that calling. In addition to this, I’d say that if a young person really is lazy, incompetent, etc., then it’s better _not_ to have them in the military where these traits could lead to someone being killed. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camp-for-failure-to-launch-guys-what-is-your-opinion/602761/59 "2011-11-15T03:08:07Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Not according to my mother in law and her friends, who helped him scam out on his rent… I didn’t say he was honest. It is, however, a matter of absolute, documented historical fact that he went from being nobody at 18 to being a famous recording artist and millionaire in five years. If that’s a failure to launch, I wish I’d failed that badly. 🙂 When he was 25, Bob Dylan was one of the ten most famous musicians on the planet. I don’t think he would have qualified to get into this Failure To Launch camp. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camp-for-failure-to-launch-guys-what-is-your-opinion/602761/60 "2011-11-15T03:33:36Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > I didn’t say he was honest. > > It is, however, a matter of absolute, documented historical fact that he went from being nobody at 18 to being a famous recording artist and millionaire in five years. If that’s a failure to launch, I wish I’d failed that badly. 🙂 When he was 25, Bob Dylan was one of the ten most famous musicians on the planet. I don’t think he would have qualified to get into this Failure To Launch camp. Which sort of is the point I’m trying to make. He was a “loser.” At 18 he was sitting in my mother in laws apartment, not holding a job, and drinking her coffee. And putting all his effort into a career that for 99% of people goes nowhere. At 18, he was where a lot of these 18 year olds are, doing nothing that, in the opinion of “average” people is mature or responsible. One of my friends has a brother who lives in his parents basement at 40 - he’s a musician - classic long term failure to launch. The difference between him and Dylan - luck. (Yes, he went off to New York and played in clubs and tried to get a contract. He’s good, too. You know how many good musicians don’t make it?) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camp-for-failure-to-launch-guys-what-is-your-opinion/602761.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/camp-for-failure-to-launch-guys-what-is-your-opinion/602761.md?page=4)