Campaign contributions are free speech?

Are you saying that giving money to a candidate is an equal protection issue, or that it’s a free speech issue which also deserves equal protection? I do think the equal protection argument is one worth debating (and will gladly do so if you wish), but I’m more interested in why money=free speech in the first place. I still haven’t seen a response that addresses that issue specifically.

That’s why I didn’t understand (and still don’t) where Nader comes into this. Those flyers, full page ads, television commercials, etc., can promote Nader’s stance on issues as well as Kerry’s and Bush’s.

Just looking at the Equal Protection angle. No need to hijack your thread if that doesn’t interest you.

“Nader” in my scenarios is just a random politician. Could’ve been anyone.

Actually, I did intend for this thread to be purely about the money angle, as that’s the most often trotted out excuse that I’ve seen. The other thread regarding CFR actually prompted this thread (although it’s been used in the past and bothered me equally then). The original intent was admittedly sort of a “Put up or shut up” invitation to that one specific argument. I’m not convinced that I’ve seen a lot of statements of the “put up” variety yet.

Your reasoning against CFR on the other hand deserves to be addressed, and perhaps we can take it up in that thread. I’m mulling over it as I type this. :slight_smile:

But contributions aren’t us making their yacht payments for them. Contributions are campaign contributions, which are used to pay for those full page ads, TV ads, and trotting your candidate around the country meeting people. Campaign contributions are exactly what you mean by “saying something.”

Lastest round of campaign finance restrictions are enacted and upheld by the court. They basically say political contributions aren’t a form of protected free speech - but don’t restrict an individual from spending their own money on their political campaigns.

Regulations that make political ads from independent groups illegal weeks before an election give even more power to editorialists and advocates in the media.

Special interest groups like the NRA, start shopping for a TV station to get around the laws.

This still doesn’t answer the question. How in the world does George know what my “speech” is when I send him a $20? I have no desire to prevent you from speaking his or Kerry’s praises, nor am I sure I want to prevent you from sending them billions of dollars. I just want to know how sending him money is speech.

The first amendment protects my right to free speech, and it protects Bush’s right to free speech. I still haven’t seen any evidence that it protects my right to make Bush’s voice louder. I can freely speak on his behalf (or against him), using all the money I have to do so. He can do the same. Where is free speech being infringed?

John Mace, since you seem to at least understand my argument, help me out here if you can. What is it about my argument that makes it so difficult to for people to address directly?

That loophole also needs to be closed. A rich person using his money to get elected is financing a campaign, namely his own. The same rules should apply to financing that campaign with his money as it would with any other campaign.

If only we had that choice. Instead, we get to pick between the guy who gets $5M from Giganto and the guy who gets $5M from Conglomo.

Sometimes, the same guy gets $5M from both. And sometimes, both guys get $5M from just one.

Let’s say that you are deeply committed to the protection of the Mexican Staring Frog of Southern Sri Lanka. So deeply committed that you want to raise the issue in the public consciousness. But you’ve got a problem: you’ve only got $20 with which to do so – nowhere near enough to effectively broadcast a message.

So what do you do? You call up some of your fellow Staring-Frog lovers, most of whom are similarly cash-strapped, and have them all pitch in so you can run a newspaper ad.

Pretty soon, based on calls from your initial ad, you see that there’s a lot of Staring-Frog lovers out there who care deeply about their plight. You form a political organization, Up With Staring Frogs, dedicated to promoting pro-Staring-Frog policies. You collect money from lots of contributors, mostly in the $20 range, in waging your campaign.

Now say the government banned contributions to political organizations. Granted, each of the UWSF members can still speak to the extent his $20 will allow. But this is still, to my mind, a first amendment violation.

Effective deployment of political speech inevitably requires the pooling of resources. Most folks aren’t Steve Forbes; they can’t self-finance entire campaigns. Money is speech because that is how those resources are pooled. To disallow that pooling is effectively a muzzle on political speech.

You ask how Bush knows what your speech is when you send him $20. That’s easy. Your speech is “please vote for Mr. Bush in November.” And your $20 isn’t so much a matter of making Mr. Bush’s voice louder as it is adding your voice to the chorus of people saying “please vote for Mr. Bush in November.” You are exercising your free speech rights by contributing to that campaign every bit as much as when your friends at UWSF helped buy that newspaper ad.

Artifical persons should not be allowed to contribute to election campaigns. Artificial persons do not need first amendment protections. APs should likewise be banned from lobbying legislatures.
Artificial persons should be limited to lobbying the electorate.

Dewey Cheatem Undhow,

I’m okay with sending it to the issue-based organizations as noted above, as this at least has the semblance of speech in my opinion. I just don’t see that sending it directly to the candidate is the same thing. I do see that a slippery slope type argument could take one from donating based on an issue all the way to donating because you agree with his stance on all issues, but I don’t give slippery slope arguments much weight until something actually begins the downhill descent.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m fully aware that even the NEA and ACLU are against me on this, and I support both of them. I just happen to think they are supporting it out of self-interest, not due to protecting free-speech in this case. There are quite a few ACLU folks who agree with me, and even the majority of the Supremes seem to be on board with me. This obviously doesn’t make me right, but it does show that this is not a cut and dry issue.

I will admit that the " ‘please vote for Mr. Bush in November’ as speech" argument is at least mildly persuasive, but since there is nothing preventing me from saying that, even to a fairly large audience if I put in minimal effort, I don’t see it as compelling enough to need first amendment protection.

Artificial persons like…Up With Staring Frogs? Or, more to the point, NARAL or the NRA?

“Artificial persons” are legal constructs designed to protect the underlying rights of individuals.

What’s the difference?

The issue in an election is who should be the person selected for a leadership position in government. That’s as least arguably as important as protecting the Mexican Staring Frog.

  1. I dispute the notion that you could say that “to a fairly large audience” with little in the way of cash outlays.

  2. Even if I accept that as true, you can also say “protect the Mexican Staring Frog of Southern Sri Lanka” to similar audiences with similar efforts. Why is one different from the other?

The beauty of the first amendment is that it doesn’t require you to show your speech is “compelling” in order to gain its protections. It protects all speech, and especially political speech, and it doesn’t matter whether you think the most important public policy choice facing the country is the protection of the Staring Frog or the reelection of George W. Bush.

Everybody’s talking about sending $20 to your favorite candidate or a 527 that supports him or an interest-group like the NRA or ACLU, and you’re all dancing around the real problem: It’s not those $20 individual contributions that are corrupting the system, it’s the much vaster contributions from established business interests.

From The Next American Nation, by Michael Lind (The Free Press, 1995), pp. 256-259:

Now, all of these figures are from 1995 or earlier and might need updating. But I can’t believe the importance of money in American elections has diminished in the past nine years, even after the McCain-Feingold bill.

You can’t get much more libertarian than Barry Goldwater. And even he was horrified at what money has done to American politics!

From pp. 311-313:

The question was “is money speech?” The analysis on that question remains the same whether a contribution is $20 or $20,000.

The principle might be the same but the problem isn’t. In any case, the solution Lind proposes, and which I support, would get both big money and small money out of elections.

Using your arguments I don’t see it as a protection of free speech. I see it as a protection of making sure your speech is heard far and wide. I’m just not convinced that that is, or that it needs to be, protected. I certainly don’t get the impression from the first amendment that it guarantees the freedom to be heard by as large of an audience as one desires, simply that you are allowed to say anything you want, within the restrictions that have since been set by the courts.

In other words, it protects speech, but does not guarantee a widespread distribution method of that speech.

So, if the government only allowed me to speak in a locked room with no observers, is it still protecting my free speech since I can say whatever I want?

Communication is part of speech. Without an audience, speech is meaningless. Deliberately infringing on my ability to find an audience is an infringement on my right to speak.

I don’t see it as infringing on your right to find an audience, as it doesn’t. I just don’t see the first amendment as a supplement to your ability to find that audience.

That’s what you’re wanting to use it for.